Posted on Jul 11, 2017
SGT Dave Tracy
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My old squad leader claimed he was temporarily farmed out to CID & tasked with helping in a criminal investigation at different unit.

I don't buy it, but others claim they "knew someone who knew someone". M-kay. Can CID really make soldiers defacto investigators (NOT traditional informants) to include attaching them to a whole different unit, with NO education/training in criminal investigation?
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CW3 Counterintelligence Technician
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So I see none of my CID counter-parts have answered yet so I'll tell you what I know. First, for a little background on myself, I have worked some cases in the past with CID as a CI Special Agent in a field office (when I was with the 902nd--they were cases that involved alleged support to terrorism which is where CID and CI often cross paths). In any case, I did see actual MPs working in some CID field offices at this time in addition to plain clothes MP's conducting investigations, but these were exclusively MPI's (Military Police Investigators--MP's that have been to MPI school and have a V5 ASI I believe. They handle various cases that CID can't get to--mostly misdemeanors requiring follow-up investigation if I'm not mistaken). I have not personally seen but have heard from some of my MP friends that they have also assisted CID in the past but nothing too in-depth. My understanding is that regular every day run-of-the-mill MP's have very limited investigative training. However, based on what I said above I wouldn't put it past the realm of possibility. With that, the person you describe does not sound like he meets any of these requirements and may just be exaggerating or outright lying to look cool. But, without knowing more about him there is no way I could tell you for sure. I would take anything he says with a grain of salt based on what you are saying.
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CW3 Counterintelligence Technician
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SGT Dave Tracy - Yeah.... Maybe CID was actually investigating him...
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SGT Dave Tracy
SGT Dave Tracy
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CW3 (Join to see) - LOL! Well, he could be quick tempered, but I doubt he did anything "interesting" in his misspent youth! And if he did, y'all never got him, because he's moved on and is E7 now.
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CW3 Counterintelligence Technician
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SGT Dave Tracy - Well just because someone is investigated doesn't mean they are guilty!
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SGT Dave Tracy
SGT Dave Tracy
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CW3 (Join to see) - Chief, are you trying to take all my fun away?????

;-)
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MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P
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Gonna call BS on this one. I can see maybe using the member as a confidential informant but definitely not as an active investigator. That takes specialized training the average "beat cop" just doesn't receive.
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CW3 Counterintelligence Technician
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I know we are talking military police here, but I will say at some civilian police departments (especially those in CA), "beat" cops do actually get investigative training at the basic academy level. Of course, this is one of the reasons why CA police academies are longer than a lot of other states (roughly seven months give or take 2 weeks depending on the specific academy in the state). At any rate, this is why in CA departments you can go from being a standard patrol officer to detective/investigator with no additional academy needed.
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MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P
MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P
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CW3 (Join to see) - The only training I got from the Academy was "Don't touch anything and wait for the Detective to show up". I'm glad to hear other locations are more advanced and willing to teach more skills.
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CW3 Counterintelligence Technician
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MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P - I have heard similar things from others. I know now training varies heavily from agency to agency, and even more so state to state. I was actually surprised when I first got into the academy to get training in things like death investigations, sex crimes, and even basic crime scene processing. In fact, even as just a patrol officer when I first started I was amazed on the level of investigative acts I was able to do just as a standard beat cop. A lot of people in the public don't realize, that many times detectives aren't available, or even at some smaller departments, patrol officers are also the detectives (and even some just rotate the positions on a two or three year basis).
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PFC David Gettman
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Edited >1 y ago
Can't answer your question but I wanted to share a CID story from a long time ago. I think the statute of limitations has come and gone. ;-)

In 1973 I was part of a small detachment of MP's from Company A, 385th MP Bn, 15th MP Brigade, in Neu Ulm, Germany. There were maybe 20 of us in the detachment. I was the senior patrolman on day shift one day and was in a restricted area at an ammo dump, 4-wheeling in my new M151A2. Wasn't supposed to be there, but there were some good hills to climb and there was nothing going on that day.

I was following the trail around the perimeter fence and was part way up one particularly steep incline when I spotted an OD green canvas satchel lying next to the fence. I backed the jeep down and walked back up to get it. Looked inside and didn't know what it was so I figured I had better take it to the MP station despite having to admit where I found it.

Turned it in to the desk sergeant and he went ballistic, yelling for our MPI agent. The MPI agent went ballistic and started yelling for our CID agent. The CID agent went ballistic and tried to give it back to me, telling me to put it back where I found it and not to say anything to anybody. Turns out it was a satchel of C-4 and nobody wanted to be responsible. I refused to take it back and they were still arguing over it when I left. No idea whatever happened to it.
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SGT Dave Tracy
SGT Dave Tracy
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Great story!
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Can CID task a non-CID/MP soldier to assist with an investigation?
SSgt Geospatial Intelligence
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SGT Dave Tracy I can see them asking SFs/MPs to assist in an investigation, but, recollecting my training through Security Forces, to actually take part in an undercover assignment, you would need to be part of CID/OSI, unless expressly authorized from your CoC.
The only way I can think to insert a regular member would be to get authorization from CoC, but CoC would keep said assignment private from member in order to keep the details secret so said member doesn't spill the beans.
I'm with you, though, that sounds a bit James Bond-y.
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CW2 Sam Warren, CFE, CIFI
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I have to echo the comments of CW4 Shaun Collins. We did, from time to time get non-MP soldiers attached to the local CID office in an OJT status, always with the purpose of eventually qualifying to apply to become a CID Agent. I saw CID Agents go undercover in specific, targeted units or on-base activities, with specific goals in mind. In all my years, I never heard of CID recruiting some random soldier and sending them undercover for anything.
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PFC David Gettman
PFC David Gettman
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Same way I got to be an MP. I had a tanker MOS (11E) and went OJT for a few weeks at 15th MP Brigade HQ in Kaiserslautern, Germany and picked up a 95B MOS.
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LTC Multifunctional Logistician
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I was contacted by CID that a Soldier in our Battalion was being utilized as an informant to gain additional information on an individual that was engaged in selling drugs to personal on our Army base. I asked how our Soldier was involved in this and the agent stated that our Soldier was a low level drug seller and they were trying to take down the network in Colorado Springs. So, I would answer Yes to your question.
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SGT Dave Tracy
SGT Dave Tracy
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That again falls under the traditional Informant model. A guy who had some prior knowledge of criminal activity. And in that case I don't doubt they would use a guy as an informant. No, this was vastly different. He had been (if true) sent to another unit to basically spy on them and report back. He apparently didn't know anyone there, and had ZERO criminal investigative training or experience. It doesn't sound plausible to me based on what (I remember) he told me about this event that occurred a few years prior, but I don't claim to know anything in this regard.
As I replied to another on here, one part of me would like to believe it could happen--because it sounds cool--another part wants to be proven right that it can't happen.
Thanks!
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LTC Multifunctional Logistician
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SGT Dave Tracy - They placed a video camera and a listening device on our Soldier and had him continue in a drug gang for several months. We also had CID in our unit where a supposed "new" Solder would get transferred to our unit and they would gather information. I think its plausible the your NCO could have been working for CID. It would be fairly easy to find out as well.
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SGT Dave Tracy
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Edited >1 y ago
Just to flesh it out a bit more since there is a character limit above, the tale is that for unknown reasons, he was selected by CID to report to a different unit (I think same post, but I don't remember all the details anymore) get in tight with those soldiers and report on some supposedly illegal activities. He had no prior knowledge of any crimes or knew any of the soldiers in that unit. He was basically a spy inserted into the unit and reporting back to CID.

Sounds too "spy novel" for me to accept at face value, but maybe I'm wrong.
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SGT Eric Knutson
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Direct assignment, I do not believe so, for a temporary assignment because of special skills or knowledge, yes. They would have to go to your chain of command (Tradition and Courtesies for sure) and requests your assistance, Usually granted as far as I know because it is a rare thing. I have seen it happen once, but for further info I would direct this to one of our MP personnel for a more full answer (or to correct me and show that what I saw was a bolt out of the blue.)
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SGT Dave Tracy
SGT Dave Tracy
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In some ways I kinda wish that were true--sounds all kinds of James Bond sexy--but it doesn't pass my smell test. Not that I knew him to lie, but still. He was a lower enlisted Grunt when this supposed incident occurred, so I doubt he had any special skills that would benefit CID.
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SGT Eric Knutson
SGT Eric Knutson
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SGT Dave Tracy - I am not sure, and without knowing or being at the situation, I would not want to speculate to your friends truthfulness, but I would normally agree with you on that point, lower EM Infantry while hard core, have not had the time to really develop themselves with special skills that are not already a dime a dozen in that unit. Unless it was a connection they had from before they enlisted at least, but even then, too young and immature for 90% of what I could think of.
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SGT Dave Tracy
SGT Dave Tracy
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SGT Eric Knutson - I can't really think of anything germane to the story that would lend credence to the tale. He supposedly didn't know anyone in that unite and he probably didn't have any special skills or training as an E1,2,3,4, Whatever I know of. In the past though, when I mentioned to other that this was the story he claimed, I got responses from some people who believed it could be true because they had heard of it before. 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th hand knowledge doesn't mean much, but even though I am inclined to believe its just a tall tale told for whatever reason, maybe I'm wrong. I am certainly not an all Army knowledge knower.

A part of me wants to believe it could be true; but another part of me wants to be proven right!
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SGT Eric Knutson
SGT Eric Knutson
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SGT Dave Tracy - if it were me, I would probably just "hmmm thats nice and move on. not worth ruining a friendship over I would think. 3rd 4th and beyond, gets a "yeah, pull the other one, it's got bells" and walk away. Like I said, in 10 years I was only close to it, and even then heard about it after the fact from one of the MPs in on the bust itself (it did clear up some questions that had been running around) but it was after the trial and conviction, and he would not get too deep into what happened, just a quick, "we borrowed this guy" and left it at that. (Kind of back to the classified discussion in another thread, if you need to know, we will tell you what you need, I did not need any more than what he told me)
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SGT Complicated
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the air force investigators have gotten into a lot of trouble for use of "special Informants"
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CW3 Michael Clifford
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The answer is yes, to a limited degree. I was a CID agent from 1978-1994. I have used mine detection teams from the engineers to search for buried weapons used in murders and attempted murders. Routinely, we used five unit members of the suspect as “fillers” in lineups. The standards require the fillers to be of the same gender and race as the suspect. It also requires the fillers to have the same physical build, complexion and of the same weight and height. If you refuse, I give you an order to stand in the lineup. If you refuse the order, you went in my report as a subject of refusing a direct order. The courts also have indicated that I could also order you to shave your mustache off, if there was no other filler in the unit which fit the clean shaven appearance of the suspect. There are other occasions where I woke up personnel sergeants in the middle of night to get the names of all newly arriving NCOs with a particular name when I was hot on the trail of a senior NCO who shot a lower ranking soldier in the head while in a German club. The importance of catching the perpetrator was more important than the SIDPERS NCO’s sleep. After explaining why we ask him to come in, he also saw the need for his expertise. With his help, I woke up every soldier with that last name and found the perpetrator. He waived his rights, confessed and took me to the area where he buried the gun. The mine detection team found the gun and it was confirmed at the crime lab as the weapon used in the attempted murder.
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