Posted on May 27, 2022
Can you get flagged for failing the army’s new M4 qualification?
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Does anyone know the answer to this question I’m having a hard time finding it online
Army Regulations
Weapons
Policy
Career Counselor
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 9
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You're a SGT, the first place you should look is the reg not Google. There is a regulation for flags. In it you won't find failing marksmanship as a reason for flagging
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I've never seen anyone get flagged for failed a weapons qualification. I have taken a private back to the range until he qualified. Turned out he was wearing his old 'super-cool' glasses with an old prescription. Once I made him put on his birth-control Army issue glasses he qualified quick enough.
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In all of my almost 24 years of service, I have never heard of, nor seen, a Soldier get Flagged for failure to qualify. I'll have to do some digging in regards to the new tables to see if I can find a definitive answer. But, just looking at DA Form 268, I see nothing relating to weapons. The form has Transferrable and Non-Transferrable Flags. They are:
Transferrable: APFT/ACFT Failure; ABCP; Punishment Phase
Non-Transferrable: Adverse Action; Involuntary Separation-field initiated; Referred OER, AER, or Relief for Cause NCOER; Security Violation or loss of Clearance; HQDA Delay of Promotion or Removal from Selection List; AMEDD Lack of License or Cert; Commander's Investigation; Law Enforcement Investigation; Reserve Component Non-Compliance with 10 USC 10206; JAG Lack of License or Cert; Deny Auto Promotion to E2/3/4; Lautenberg Amendment; Administratively Non-deployable for Retention; No Family Care Plan; Deny Auto Promotion to 1LT/CW2; Drug Abuse; Alcohol Abuse; HQDA Involuntary Separation
Transferrable: APFT/ACFT Failure; ABCP; Punishment Phase
Non-Transferrable: Adverse Action; Involuntary Separation-field initiated; Referred OER, AER, or Relief for Cause NCOER; Security Violation or loss of Clearance; HQDA Delay of Promotion or Removal from Selection List; AMEDD Lack of License or Cert; Commander's Investigation; Law Enforcement Investigation; Reserve Component Non-Compliance with 10 USC 10206; JAG Lack of License or Cert; Deny Auto Promotion to E2/3/4; Lautenberg Amendment; Administratively Non-deployable for Retention; No Family Care Plan; Deny Auto Promotion to 1LT/CW2; Drug Abuse; Alcohol Abuse; HQDA Involuntary Separation
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SGM Erik Marquez
Reading the reg, what it states unequivocally is when a flag MUST be initiated, not listing the ONLY reason a flag can be initiated.
"2-3 Circumstances requiring a transferable Flag"
"2–2. Circumstances requiring a nontransferable Flag"
And If you fail to qualify with ir assigned weapon a commander could begin an investigation into that SM as to if retention or involuntary separation is appropriate "The suspension of favorable actions on a Soldier is mandatory when military or civilian authorities initiate any investigation or inquiry that may potentially result in disciplinary or adverse administrative action. Commanders, general officer staff heads, and heads of HQDA staff agencies (to include the DA Suitability Evaluation Board) must ensure that favorable personnel actions are suspended in accordance with the criteria contained in this regulation."
But reality as I remember it is, failure to qualify was generally looked at as a training or supervisor failure. And thus, the individual SM was not punished or administratively dealt with. Supervisors and leadership was looked at with concern when an SM that has qualified previously can not now qualify. Its really one of three things, lack of training and supervision, a physical / mental change in the SM that has not been identified by leadership, or a intentional desire and failure of the SM, in which case, why has leadership not already identified the issue, and corrected it or started the separation process.
"2-3 Circumstances requiring a transferable Flag"
"2–2. Circumstances requiring a nontransferable Flag"
And If you fail to qualify with ir assigned weapon a commander could begin an investigation into that SM as to if retention or involuntary separation is appropriate "The suspension of favorable actions on a Soldier is mandatory when military or civilian authorities initiate any investigation or inquiry that may potentially result in disciplinary or adverse administrative action. Commanders, general officer staff heads, and heads of HQDA staff agencies (to include the DA Suitability Evaluation Board) must ensure that favorable personnel actions are suspended in accordance with the criteria contained in this regulation."
But reality as I remember it is, failure to qualify was generally looked at as a training or supervisor failure. And thus, the individual SM was not punished or administratively dealt with. Supervisors and leadership was looked at with concern when an SM that has qualified previously can not now qualify. Its really one of three things, lack of training and supervision, a physical / mental change in the SM that has not been identified by leadership, or a intentional desire and failure of the SM, in which case, why has leadership not already identified the issue, and corrected it or started the separation process.
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Flag? No. But failing to qualify IS punishable via a Bar to Continued Service. It's specifically listed as one of the reasons for a bar. You can be kicked out if you continue to fail to qualify.
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It might be possible since it's in the hands of the Commander, but I would suspect it in addition to more problems than just that. Hell, would you want a non-shooter watching your back in combat, maybe hitting your people instead of the target? I never saw it, but we did send lousy shots to every range opportunity in the Regiment.
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CPT (Join to see)
It's a USAR and NG problem. There's no sending poor shooters to the range over and over. It just gets ignored, and E4s and E5s will get hammered with promotion packets.
Marksmanship being my pet peeve, I wonder what's going to happen now the new weapon qual tables are out. They are going to take more time (we don't have) and are much harder.
Marksmanship being my pet peeve, I wonder what's going to happen now the new weapon qual tables are out. They are going to take more time (we don't have) and are much harder.
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Other than the suppressor, how different is the M-4 carbine from the CAR-15 that SEALs use?
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I believe you are just required to re-qualify. If you continue to fail then that would create a problem.
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what happens if you fail with the scope on your rifle? The scope was not zeroed in for you
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My guess is that you would lose the carbine bar on your shooting qualification badge. Perhaps pickup nickname of BOLO.
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