Posted on Nov 4, 2014
Concealed carry for all current service members (CAC holders)?
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Should uniformed military be allowed to conceal carry any were in the U.S. with a CAC as a license due to increased threats to military personnel?
Concealed Carry
Firearms and Guns
Gun Control
2nd Amendment
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 337
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I would like to see a minimum of commissioned officers, warrants, and NCOs carrying a Sidearms on duty on post. I would make the mental leap that all soldiers are armed while on duty on post...just like when we are in theater/ deployments. Yes, I know there will be some that go haywire (just like overseas....but at least everyone else will be able to defend themselves).
I would like to see All military personnel who are properly trained and qualified authorized to carry off duty concealed on and off post with only their Military ID.
The off duty carry...in almost every state, Soldiers can get a CCW/CCL for off post carry anyways. Some states even reduce the minimum age (as low as 18) for Military Personnel. If we approve the on post carry (assuming some type of training first), then we would know who is doing it. Yes, there will be people to abuse it/ do something stupid/ go haywire...but again at least we will be able to defend ourselves. Also the ones who would abuse it/ do something stupid/ go haywire are doing it now anyways, just illegally and without our knowledge.
Commence the beatings...
I would like to see All military personnel who are properly trained and qualified authorized to carry off duty concealed on and off post with only their Military ID.
The off duty carry...in almost every state, Soldiers can get a CCW/CCL for off post carry anyways. Some states even reduce the minimum age (as low as 18) for Military Personnel. If we approve the on post carry (assuming some type of training first), then we would know who is doing it. Yes, there will be people to abuse it/ do something stupid/ go haywire...but again at least we will be able to defend ourselves. Also the ones who would abuse it/ do something stupid/ go haywire are doing it now anyways, just illegally and without our knowledge.
Commence the beatings...
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PO1 (Join to see)
Actually, the quick draw thing, minus the mirror, *is* something you should do. You should always practice drawing from a holster(and if you have a bore sight laser, practicing accuracy after drawing is nice as well). I've lost track of the number of people at my various commands who were unfamiliar with their holsters when the time came for annual re-qualification. Nothing like a timed course and you can't get your pistol out of the holster because you don't know where the unlock button is by feel. Note: These are people who carry the damn things daily and they don't know how to draw because of how the military treats weapons training. Oooh it's a gun, I can't touch it once I holster it until I need to use it or turn it in! If it comes down to drawing fast in RL, they're screwed.
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SPC Casey Ashfield
Stripping rank away, I would have no issue with having approved service members carry firearms at all times on duty. I have met some dumb privates and I have met some dumb officers and NCOs. If you are going to allow carry on duty, treat it like a weapons qualification with a higher standard.
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LCpl Russell Wallace
Good god. With what I’ve seen at the ranges I would prefer officers not have weapons at all let along getting a concealed permit
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**EDIT**
I created a new discussion to post the outcome of advice from this answer, a skeleton letter to congress for anyone to use, check it out here:
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/arm-the-armed-forces
"Arm the Armed Forces!"
I think this is worth doing. I offer these 10 points to be edited and improved on by commentary. Then we use these points (lets try to keep it below 10) to recommend simple policy improvement to our newly elected congress, I propose we debate for at least a week then start writing. Lets leverage our knowledge and strength as a community to improve force protection for our military and the public at large.
Simple policy:
1. Yearly pistol qualifications required (live fire Joint combat pistol course to be established)
2. "A" for "armed" added to CAC right below name
*3. Option available at command discretion for all service-members and mandatory for line Officers, SNCOs and those serving in a Law Enforcement capacity.
4. Open-Carry mandatory and an inspect-able item when on duty (normal workday not just OOD etc.)
*5. Concealed carry optional when off duty with an "A" ROE is defense of self and others from deadly force ONLY.
*6. Weapons will be under direct control of service-members at all times or unloaded and double-locked when on Government Property.
7. Negligent Discharges and other related weapons crimes or conduct infractions punishable with mandatory NJP, forfeiture of pay and required re-qualification option for elevation to Courts-Martial, repeat offenses subject to BCDs.
*8. Active Duty and Reservist Service Members will now be covered under the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) Federal Law, or a parallel law will be created explicitly for them. The US attorney's office is charged to defend this protection against any legal challenges.
*9. Mental Heath/Behavioral objections from any medical officer or any member in chain of command will immediately suspend authority/requirement pending review by a board comprised of command, medical and mental health officers, suspension of requirement is independent of prohibition on owning personal weapons-this will be handled under pre-existing regulations, suspension pending review does not automatically bear on proficiency evaluations or promotions
*10. When on Government Property, Service-members granted authority will furnish their own weapons in the standard service caliber, weapons will be semi-automatic, in good working order, and will be fed by standard sized magazines (neither extended beyond the magazine well nor reduced in capacity).
Edits added on suggestions indicated by "*" (combined 3 and 4 to save numbers, 5 added ROE, 6,9, 10 added 8 language cleaned up):
I created a new discussion to post the outcome of advice from this answer, a skeleton letter to congress for anyone to use, check it out here:
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/arm-the-armed-forces
"Arm the Armed Forces!"
I think this is worth doing. I offer these 10 points to be edited and improved on by commentary. Then we use these points (lets try to keep it below 10) to recommend simple policy improvement to our newly elected congress, I propose we debate for at least a week then start writing. Lets leverage our knowledge and strength as a community to improve force protection for our military and the public at large.
Simple policy:
1. Yearly pistol qualifications required (live fire Joint combat pistol course to be established)
2. "A" for "armed" added to CAC right below name
*3. Option available at command discretion for all service-members and mandatory for line Officers, SNCOs and those serving in a Law Enforcement capacity.
4. Open-Carry mandatory and an inspect-able item when on duty (normal workday not just OOD etc.)
*5. Concealed carry optional when off duty with an "A" ROE is defense of self and others from deadly force ONLY.
*6. Weapons will be under direct control of service-members at all times or unloaded and double-locked when on Government Property.
7. Negligent Discharges and other related weapons crimes or conduct infractions punishable with mandatory NJP, forfeiture of pay and required re-qualification option for elevation to Courts-Martial, repeat offenses subject to BCDs.
*8. Active Duty and Reservist Service Members will now be covered under the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) Federal Law, or a parallel law will be created explicitly for them. The US attorney's office is charged to defend this protection against any legal challenges.
*9. Mental Heath/Behavioral objections from any medical officer or any member in chain of command will immediately suspend authority/requirement pending review by a board comprised of command, medical and mental health officers, suspension of requirement is independent of prohibition on owning personal weapons-this will be handled under pre-existing regulations, suspension pending review does not automatically bear on proficiency evaluations or promotions
*10. When on Government Property, Service-members granted authority will furnish their own weapons in the standard service caliber, weapons will be semi-automatic, in good working order, and will be fed by standard sized magazines (neither extended beyond the magazine well nor reduced in capacity).
Edits added on suggestions indicated by "*" (combined 3 and 4 to save numbers, 5 added ROE, 6,9, 10 added 8 language cleaned up):
Arm the Armed Forces! | RallyPoint
The outcome of the discussion "Concealed carry for CAC holders?" by [~222148:SGT Bernard Boyer III]. Below follows my skeleton letter to congress, based on the edits RP members have suggested to the 10 points. Anyone and everyone is welcome to edit and personalize the letter for their own use in writing to their congressional representatives. We sent a mass email on 3 January, the swearing in of the new congress, now it's a free for all. You...
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MSG Bo Lathrop
Don't think it should be mandatory for all line officers or SNCO's, but everything else, I completely agree with.
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SSG(P) (Join to see)
Hey sir sorry I'm in the police academy but I really think that we are getting somewhere with this.....has any one herd anything?
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Capt Richard I P.
Sadly I think our message has largely fallen on deaf ears this time. I do think the debate and arguments it raised retain value and the more representatives hear about it the more likely at some point in the future our representatives will finally do re right thing and Arm the Armed Forces.
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SPC Casey Ashfield
4. Why Open Carry? I do believe this should be left to commander discretion. I carry a firearm every day, and I conceal it. I am not comfortable open carrying a firearm. In addition, open carry raises questions of weapon retention. So if open carry would be the norm, there would be some requirement for retention such as level II or III retention holsters that police officers use.
10. "in service caliber." Okay I have a rub here. If the service member is going to be furnishing their own firearm (and not M9/M11/M17 from the armory) they should be able to carry a caliber of their choosing. Providing they also provide the ammo for carry. I would not expect a soldier carrying a Glock 30 to expect the Army to provide .45ACP ammo for duty carry.
10. "in service caliber." Okay I have a rub here. If the service member is going to be furnishing their own firearm (and not M9/M11/M17 from the armory) they should be able to carry a caliber of their choosing. Providing they also provide the ammo for carry. I would not expect a soldier carrying a Glock 30 to expect the Army to provide .45ACP ammo for duty carry.
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There should be a federal carry permit for military personnel. Actually probably should be for everyone. They can have federal guidelines like they do for a commercial drivers license. I think the public has a misconception that the police are the best trained to handle the situation, but time will be of the essence. I believe many non law enforcement CCW holders have more time and training with their weapons then officers. Also many have attended tactical courses to improve their skills. So your best chance of survival my be that CCW holder at the moment of the threat.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Sgt Adam Jennings - The problem with using the state permits is that they mean nothing as soon as you get on base. It also does not count in an area marked by the state as a "gun free zone".
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Sgt Adam Jennings
SSG Brian Dedorest, I guess I should have been more clear about what I meant. State permits recognized nationwide as well as by the federal government. I apologize for the confusion. I recognize the fact that CCW's mean nothing on a base and that is precisely the problem.
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LTC (Join to see)
I have personnel in my unit that can't hardly hold a sidearm correctly much less hit a target. SC CWP holders must take a written and shooting test. 8 hour course. I think this is sufficient. The Army could then offer a tactical handgun course to build on the CWP. Just possessing a CAC doesn't cut it, but those trained do need to be able to carry on post or at their duty stations.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
MSgt (Join to see) Master Sergeant, a National ANYTHING when it comes to guns, aside from the FBI Instant check is a terrible idea. The reason for this is simple. As of now, gun laws are set by the states. If the Federal Government gets it's paws on gun laws then we will all have the laws like California. Let the states run the gun laws.
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I was thinking about this recently, after 2 military personnel in Ohio were shot point blank (in separate instances) after that ISIS announcement to target military. In Maryland, we have to show a "reasonable threat" in order to carry. Is that NOT a reasonable threat??
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SSG (Join to see)
Georgia already treats an active military ID as a Concealed Carry Permit. In my opinion, if you can legally own a gun you should be allowed to carry it. The government needs to stop putting limits on our 2nd amendment rights.
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LTC Gavin Heater
Massachusetts has a rule that the Police Chief of each of the 350 cities and towns makes the determination on licensing for target, hunting and concealed carry. Very restrictive.
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MSG Danny Stanley
I think the fact that ISIS has published a credible threat should absolutely be reason enough to be granted a permit in places like Maryland where you have to prove there is a threat. I know Emily Miller of Fox 5 used a CIA or FBI memo stating that there was a credible threat against journalists to get her DC permit. I'm actually surprised you don't think there is a risk on post CSM Chandler. I'm sure those Soldiers at Fort Hood would appreciate having the ability to shoot back when MAJ Hassan went on his shooting spree. In an unconventional war such GWOT we have no defined front lines. The wounded from Fort Hood even received Purple Hearts, which serve as evidence that the combat zone has come home to America. Soldiers in combat zones have a need to protect themselves. Fortunately for me, I live in West Virginia and have a carry permit. I have reciprocity with 30+ states, so I can travel through most of the south with no issues. On the downside, I work in Maryland and my Reserve unit is in Maryland, so I have to sacrifice my right to self protection when I go to and from Reserves. I still keep a gun in the car when in Maryland, I just have it inaccessible from my seat. (No, CSM, I don't go to APG with my firearm. I begrudgingly follow that rule.)
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Uniformed personnel should not carry concealed.
They should be issued weapons and carry them openly.
They should be issued weapons and carry them openly.
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SFC (Join to see)
I'll agree with you in being armed and open carrying while on post. Off post, CC should be the norm. The element of surprise is a powerful thing. All service members have been thoroughly vetted, and should CC. Why is it that we should be softer targets, when wearing the uniform daily?
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SSgt (Join to see)
There have been a number of cases where an open carrier was robed of their gun because they are a clear threat if you are trying to rob someone. If you carry in a city I think it is best to CC. There are a lot of people that are scared at the sight of a firearm. I have never had a problem concealing any of mine.
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SGT Chester Beedle
SFC (Join to see) - If by domestic issues you mean convictions of domestic violence they aren't even allowed in the military because there is no exemption for military or law enforcement possession of firearms.
Others, the few felons who have been allowed in... well there's a reason I said we need to eliminate the waivers. Or, LE could just run the name and ID number and be told pretty quickly if the person is legal or not.
Others, the few felons who have been allowed in... well there's a reason I said we need to eliminate the waivers. Or, LE could just run the name and ID number and be told pretty quickly if the person is legal or not.
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SGT Chester Beedle
SSgt (Join to see) - Can you cite sources? People say this, but none have been able to show where or when it actually happened.
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I believe they should be allowed. Or at least be able to present their cac card and receive a FREE permit to carry.
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PO2 Donald Wright
CC permits are a State issue and need to stay so. If the military members has a CC in their home State check to see if it is honored in the duty stations State. If there is an issue the Military member can change his/her home State to the duty station's State. I would not make a CAC a reason to issue in any state. CC should be a right to any legal law abiding citizen.
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LTC Paul Heinlein
PO2 Donald Wright, all states that I know of consider active duty military personnel the same as residents of that state when it comes to issuing CCWs/CCLs.
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Capt Richard I P.
PO3 Shaun Taylor Good ideas, what do you think of the 9 point post I made below? lets make the ideas strong building blocks for rational argument with our opposition on this topic.
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SGT (Join to see)
Then you run into the issue of states that rarely issue CCWs. States like California, New Jersey, New York.
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Well we do have that part of the oath that states to protect from all enemies foreign and domestic, and well if we're not allowed to carry in a way to protect ourselves and others are we living up to that aspect of the oath of enlistment and the oath of office for Officers. So yes we should provide the training to concealed carry.
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Cpl Ray Fernandez
SSG(P) (Join to see) I rather just keep the justification simple so there isn't any ambiguity. I can't think of a better bunch to trust to carry a weapon than service members who train regularly with small arms.
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At one time, I would have insisted that carrying concealed on a military installation was a bad idea. Times have changed. Between Ft. Hood and the Washington Shipyard shooting, and these potential lone wolf threats targeting us because we're military, we need to reevaluate who can carry, when and where, as military personnel.
Is the CAC card the tool to do that? It provides identification to military members, access to computer networks and other controlled areas, but no information about your latest weapons qualification, or any other data that might be used to ascertain your suitability to carry off the reservation, like background checks. The problem with using it as a CCW license is a chain of responsibility issue. What agency verified that you’re ok to carry? Right now, it’s a local (state or county) issue. Can the USA, USN, USMC, or USAF take that on?
Is the CAC card the tool to do that? It provides identification to military members, access to computer networks and other controlled areas, but no information about your latest weapons qualification, or any other data that might be used to ascertain your suitability to carry off the reservation, like background checks. The problem with using it as a CCW license is a chain of responsibility issue. What agency verified that you’re ok to carry? Right now, it’s a local (state or county) issue. Can the USA, USN, USMC, or USAF take that on?
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Capt Richard I P.
SSgt (Join to see) I think the CAC could be expanded pretty easily with minimal cost to provide access to most recent weapons qualification, the badges with As would just expire yearly, some small increase on the man-hours of producing new cards, but savings in life might be worth it. Check out my post for all 9 points and consider any improvements you can offer, then think about writing congress with the ideas. Maybe we can actually get something going. "Arm the Armed Forces."
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SFC (Join to see)
I think that point #8 is the answer. " *8. Active Duty and Reservist Service Members will now be covered under the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) Federal Law, or a parallel law will be created explicitly for them. The US attorney's office is charged to defend this protection against any legal challenges."
Either expand LEOSA to cover active duty and retired military members or write a separate law similar to LEOSA for active duty and retired military.
Either expand LEOSA to cover active duty and retired military members or write a separate law similar to LEOSA for active duty and retired military.
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SGT Chester Beedle
Since even many of the states that require training will accept any military service, even air force fuelers or Navy none rates, it's a moot point for most.
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No because there are a lot of people who get a CAC that are not AD and do not have the training.
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PO1 (Join to see)
There would have to be requirements to make this work. The service member would need to take a CCW safety course for the state they are in. Then bring that certificate to the ID office to be added to DEERS. Then having that and perhaps a signed check sheet from the military doctor that the person is not suffering from PTS (not D because it is not a disease, it is a trauma), then from legal to ensure that the meet the federal qualifications to carry (no domestic violence). With all that, then they could get a small CCQ imprinted on their CAC that would allow them to carry. The CAC would be their CCW permit. Being Military though, this would need to trump the state laws like New Jersey that do not allow CC.
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LTC (Join to see)
In SC, you have to take a four hour classroom course with two exams and a shooting test of 50 rounds to show general proficiency with a handgun. Not all states do that, so there would need to be some type of qualification standard developed. I certainly think it is something they should look at and seriously consider. I'm more protected in my house than I am, along with my soldiers, on post.
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SGT Chester Beedle
WA requires nothing. VA requires a simple safety course or proof of any military service. Some sheriff's in OR accept any military service as well.
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