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A little history lesson, the Confederate flag many wish to remove was merely a battle flag, and looked nothing like the Confederate/ Rebel flag we see flown today. This battle flag was flown in efforts to determine who's who on the battle, because the Union, and Confederate flags were so similar it was hard to differentiate the two in battle. Now you know, and knowing is half the battle.
Confederate Flag
Knowledge
Education
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 19
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For me this flag thing has been an odd duck to watch.
As a Northerner, if I saw one of those flags around here 150 years ago that dude carrying it would be trying to kill me, and I him. The greater point being I have no real connection to that flag; as I am not Black nor a Southerner nor the descendant of someone who fought in the war, the only meaning it has to me is that it rode atop the General Lee on the Dukes of Hazard (Can we all agree regardless of general flag opinion to at least give that one a pass? The car itself was a character on the show and in fairness, them Dukes were never meanin' no harm!). And yet, I have seen (and knew) a few Black folk and white Northerners who claim that flag-hence part of my puzzlement.
I know symbology--flags in particular--have powerful psychological meaning to people; so that I get. I accept that this flag holds different meanings to different groups of people, and to me it seems like each group is looking to set THE definition for the meaning of the flag. Not sure that will go anywhere.
I have nothing vested in this nor do I have any passions about that flag either way. I simply fail to "get it", and as a complete outsider, I'm not sure I am supposed to get it.
Lastly, SSG Johnson, were you quoting G.I. Joe at the end there? ;-)
As a Northerner, if I saw one of those flags around here 150 years ago that dude carrying it would be trying to kill me, and I him. The greater point being I have no real connection to that flag; as I am not Black nor a Southerner nor the descendant of someone who fought in the war, the only meaning it has to me is that it rode atop the General Lee on the Dukes of Hazard (Can we all agree regardless of general flag opinion to at least give that one a pass? The car itself was a character on the show and in fairness, them Dukes were never meanin' no harm!). And yet, I have seen (and knew) a few Black folk and white Northerners who claim that flag-hence part of my puzzlement.
I know symbology--flags in particular--have powerful psychological meaning to people; so that I get. I accept that this flag holds different meanings to different groups of people, and to me it seems like each group is looking to set THE definition for the meaning of the flag. Not sure that will go anywhere.
I have nothing vested in this nor do I have any passions about that flag either way. I simply fail to "get it", and as a complete outsider, I'm not sure I am supposed to get it.
Lastly, SSG Johnson, were you quoting G.I. Joe at the end there? ;-)
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Actually it was only flown by Lee's army, the Army of Northern Virginia, but some how about a century later it became the dominant symbol for allot of the South.
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I do NOT feel that an individual displaying any of those colors is necessarily racist. I do however believe that governments, which should seek to represent the entire populace, should be very careful about open displays of these symbols. I perceive no value in flying one over the State House, or Governor's residence, for example.
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The funny thing is that the CSA didn’t really have much success on the battlefield. There is not much to honor.
Federal battle deaths were 110,000, CSA battle deaths were 94,000. Since the so-called CSA was on the defensive, and the recent wide spread use of the rifled musket magnified defensive power at the expense of offensive power, those figures should show –many- more federal deaths than CSA deaths, in keeping with Napoleon’s dictum that it takes three attackers to drive off one defender. The rebels also had the advantage of interior lines.
Federal armies in the ‘West’ went pretty much from victory to victory throughout the war, capturing Forts Henry and Donelson early in 1862, occupying Nashville not long after that, driving into north Mississippi to cut the east-west rail line to Texas, driving off CSA army after army in the investment of Vicksburg, where an entire army was captured, driving the rebels out of middle Tennessee and capturing Chattanooga, inexorably advancing on and capturing Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia. The single bad check of the western federal armies was at Chickamauga.
In the eastern theater, Lee had as little success outside Virginia as various federal generals had within it. He is vastly overrated. After he wrecked his own army for offensive operations, he operated primarily on the defensive in an era when defensive technologies were dominant.
Finally, when the big plantation owners reneged on their pledge to raise food stuffs to feed the soldiers’ families, the rebel armies melted away. All that “you fought all the way Johnnie Reb’ is a lot of road apples.
One thing to keep in mind about the so-called CSA is that it never really existed. The various rebel states passed secession documents – you can do the same thing. But since they were no more able than you to give them force, the so-called CSA was just what President Lincoln called them: Combinations too powerful to be dealt with by the US Marshals.
As the so-called CSA was busy collapsing and its armies were melting away, President Lincoln was criticized for treating with the legislature of Virginia. He had not done that he said, he dealt with a group who styled themselves as the legislature of Virginia, because they had power to effect events.
Walt
Federal battle deaths were 110,000, CSA battle deaths were 94,000. Since the so-called CSA was on the defensive, and the recent wide spread use of the rifled musket magnified defensive power at the expense of offensive power, those figures should show –many- more federal deaths than CSA deaths, in keeping with Napoleon’s dictum that it takes three attackers to drive off one defender. The rebels also had the advantage of interior lines.
Federal armies in the ‘West’ went pretty much from victory to victory throughout the war, capturing Forts Henry and Donelson early in 1862, occupying Nashville not long after that, driving into north Mississippi to cut the east-west rail line to Texas, driving off CSA army after army in the investment of Vicksburg, where an entire army was captured, driving the rebels out of middle Tennessee and capturing Chattanooga, inexorably advancing on and capturing Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia. The single bad check of the western federal armies was at Chickamauga.
In the eastern theater, Lee had as little success outside Virginia as various federal generals had within it. He is vastly overrated. After he wrecked his own army for offensive operations, he operated primarily on the defensive in an era when defensive technologies were dominant.
Finally, when the big plantation owners reneged on their pledge to raise food stuffs to feed the soldiers’ families, the rebel armies melted away. All that “you fought all the way Johnnie Reb’ is a lot of road apples.
One thing to keep in mind about the so-called CSA is that it never really existed. The various rebel states passed secession documents – you can do the same thing. But since they were no more able than you to give them force, the so-called CSA was just what President Lincoln called them: Combinations too powerful to be dealt with by the US Marshals.
As the so-called CSA was busy collapsing and its armies were melting away, President Lincoln was criticized for treating with the legislature of Virginia. He had not done that he said, he dealt with a group who styled themselves as the legislature of Virginia, because they had power to effect events.
Walt
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Capt Walter Miller
"It’s strange that you should think that it was poor performance that landed them pushing into Northern Territory."
I don't think I said that. Lee took his army into the north because the government in Richmond couldn't feed it.
Lee's army was half-starved as the 1865 campaign approached. That is why it melted away by desertion when pressed by the Yankee armies on the way to Appomattox.
I don't think I said that. Lee took his army into the north because the government in Richmond couldn't feed it.
Lee's army was half-starved as the 1865 campaign approached. That is why it melted away by desertion when pressed by the Yankee armies on the way to Appomattox.
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Capt Walter Miller
CPT Michael Barden - "Either way, your opinion on Lee’s competency as a general really has no bearing on the point of the argument about the righteousness of celebrating the confederacy."
President Lincoln rightly called the secessionists traitors. That eliminates any reason to celebrate the life of the so-called confederacy. Its life was nasty, brutish and short.
"It might seem at first thought to be of little difference whether the present movement at the South be called "secession" or "rebellion." The movers, however, well understand the difference. At the beginning they knew they could never raise their treason to any respectable magnitude by any name which implies violation of law. They knew their people possessed as much of moral sense, as much of devotion to law and order, and as much pride in and reverence for the history and Government of their common country as any other civilized and patriotic people. They knew they could make no advancement directly in the teeth of these strong and noble sentiments. Accordingly, they commenced by an insidious debauching of the public mind. They invented an ingenious sophism, which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps through all the incidents to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is that any State of the Union may consistently with the National Constitution, and therefore lawfully and peacefully , withdraw from the Union without the consent of the Union or of any other State. The little disguise that the supposed right is to be exercised only for just cause, themselves to be the sole judge of its justice, is too thin to merit any notice."
-- A. Lincoln 7/4/61
https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-speeches/july-4-1861-july-4th-message-congress
President Lincoln rightly called the secessionists traitors. That eliminates any reason to celebrate the life of the so-called confederacy. Its life was nasty, brutish and short.
"It might seem at first thought to be of little difference whether the present movement at the South be called "secession" or "rebellion." The movers, however, well understand the difference. At the beginning they knew they could never raise their treason to any respectable magnitude by any name which implies violation of law. They knew their people possessed as much of moral sense, as much of devotion to law and order, and as much pride in and reverence for the history and Government of their common country as any other civilized and patriotic people. They knew they could make no advancement directly in the teeth of these strong and noble sentiments. Accordingly, they commenced by an insidious debauching of the public mind. They invented an ingenious sophism, which, if conceded, was followed by perfectly logical steps through all the incidents to the complete destruction of the Union. The sophism itself is that any State of the Union may consistently with the National Constitution, and therefore lawfully and peacefully , withdraw from the Union without the consent of the Union or of any other State. The little disguise that the supposed right is to be exercised only for just cause, themselves to be the sole judge of its justice, is too thin to merit any notice."
-- A. Lincoln 7/4/61
https://millercenter.org/the-presidency/presidential-speeches/july-4-1861-july-4th-message-congress
July 4, 1861: July 4th Message to Congress | Miller Center
Between the fall of Fort Sumter on April 13, 1861, and July of that same year, President Lincoln took a number of actions in response to secession without Congressional approval. In this special message to Congress, Lincoln asks Congress to validate his actions by authorizing them after the fact. This message also marks Lincoln's first full explanation of the purpose of the war.
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As we can on any important problem, we can refer to the Great Santini.
When his kids wanted to sing Dixie as they drove in the station wagon to their next duty station Santini informed them in no uncertain terms that Dixie was the song for losers.
Walt
When his kids wanted to sing Dixie as they drove in the station wagon to their next duty station Santini informed them in no uncertain terms that Dixie was the song for losers.
Walt
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In point of fact...
The CSA didn’t really have much success on the battlefield. Federal battle deaths were 110,000, CSA battle deaths were 94,000. Since the so-called CSA was on the defensive, and the recent wide spread use of the rifled musket magnified defensive power at the expense of offensive power, those figures should show –many- more federal deaths than CSA deaths, in keeping with Napoleon’s dictum that it takes three attackers to drive off one defender. The rebels also had the advantage of interior lines.
Federal armies in the ‘West’ went pretty much from victory to victory throughout the war, capturing Forts Henry and Donelson early in 1862, occupying Nashville not long after that, driving into north Mississippi to cut the east-west rail line to Texas, driving off CSA army after army in the investment of Vicksburg, where an entire army was captured, driving the rebels out of middle Tennessee and capturing Chattanooga, inexorably advancing on and capturing Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia. The single bad check of the western federal armies was at Chickamauga.
In the eastern theater, Lee had as little success outside Virginia as various federal generals had within it. He is vastly overrated. After he wrecked his own army for offensive operations, he operated primarily on the defensive in an era when defensive technologies were dominant.
Finally, when the big plantation owners reneged on their pledge to raise food stuffs to feed the soldiers’ families, the rebel armies melted away. All that “you fought all the way Johnnie Reb’ is a lot of road apples.
One thing to keep in mind about the so-called CSA is that it never really existed. The various rebel states passed secession documents – you can do the same thing. But since they were no more able than you to give them force, the so-called CSA was just what President Lincoln called them: Combinations too powerful to be dealt with by the US Marshals.
As the so-called CSA was busy collapsing and its armies were melting away, President Lincoln was criticized for treating with the legislature of Virginia. He had not done that he said, he dealt with a group who styled themselves as the legislature of Virginia, because they had power to effect events.
Walt
The CSA didn’t really have much success on the battlefield. Federal battle deaths were 110,000, CSA battle deaths were 94,000. Since the so-called CSA was on the defensive, and the recent wide spread use of the rifled musket magnified defensive power at the expense of offensive power, those figures should show –many- more federal deaths than CSA deaths, in keeping with Napoleon’s dictum that it takes three attackers to drive off one defender. The rebels also had the advantage of interior lines.
Federal armies in the ‘West’ went pretty much from victory to victory throughout the war, capturing Forts Henry and Donelson early in 1862, occupying Nashville not long after that, driving into north Mississippi to cut the east-west rail line to Texas, driving off CSA army after army in the investment of Vicksburg, where an entire army was captured, driving the rebels out of middle Tennessee and capturing Chattanooga, inexorably advancing on and capturing Atlanta, Savannah and Columbia. The single bad check of the western federal armies was at Chickamauga.
In the eastern theater, Lee had as little success outside Virginia as various federal generals had within it. He is vastly overrated. After he wrecked his own army for offensive operations, he operated primarily on the defensive in an era when defensive technologies were dominant.
Finally, when the big plantation owners reneged on their pledge to raise food stuffs to feed the soldiers’ families, the rebel armies melted away. All that “you fought all the way Johnnie Reb’ is a lot of road apples.
One thing to keep in mind about the so-called CSA is that it never really existed. The various rebel states passed secession documents – you can do the same thing. But since they were no more able than you to give them force, the so-called CSA was just what President Lincoln called them: Combinations too powerful to be dealt with by the US Marshals.
As the so-called CSA was busy collapsing and its armies were melting away, President Lincoln was criticized for treating with the legislature of Virginia. He had not done that he said, he dealt with a group who styled themselves as the legislature of Virginia, because they had power to effect events.
Walt
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Well, Georgia got the right idea of removing Confederate Memorial Day as a holiday. The Robert E Lee holiday I don't mind so much. However, I strongly object to taking a holiday to observe a cause that damn near split this country in two and whose repercussions we still feel.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/09/us/georgia-confederate-memorial-holiday-feat/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2015/08/09/us/georgia-confederate-memorial-holiday-feat/index.html
Georgia removes Confederate holidays from state calendar - CNN.com
Confederate Memorial Day and Robert E. Lee's birthday have been struck from Georgia's official calendar and replaced with the innocuous term "state holiday."
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Variants on a theme. Supporters cite it as a source of pride. Detractors as a source of racism. To my mind, the question was answered when that crackpot took a selfie with the Confederate flag in one hand, pistol in the other and shot NINE people in a church.
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