Posted on Sep 29, 2015
Congressman Demands Navy Secretary's Resignation over Women in Combat. Do you agree or disagree?
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The way Mabus threw the Corps under the bus leaves a bad taste in my mouth. His priority should be the welfare of the services he runs, and to so blatantly disregard a field study because he didn't like the results is little more than cronyism, imo. So I'm glad to see this, though I doubt anything will come of it. What do you think?
And just to be clear, my angst in this issue has nothing to do with women in combat, and everything to do with a Service Secretary completely ignoring and undermining senior military leadership.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/09/18/congressman-demands-navy-secretarys-resignation-women-in-combat.html
And just to be clear, my angst in this issue has nothing to do with women in combat, and everything to do with a Service Secretary completely ignoring and undermining senior military leadership.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2015/09/18/congressman-demands-navy-secretarys-resignation-women-in-combat.html
Politics
Navy
Government
Women in the Military
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 15
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The secretary should have been gone since naming a warship after congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords. I have no problem with women in combat as long as it doesn't distract from unit efficiency and combat effectiveness. I actually think it's an inevitably at this point. My issue is with the secretary's judgement. Too many of his initiatives seem politically motivated and not based on what's best for the USN/USMC.
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SN Greg Wright
PO1 (Join to see) Oh, PO1 don't get me started on that. Naming a warship after someone who did nothing more than get shot? Who is simply a victim? When there's brave men and women DYING overseas?
Grrrrrr
Grrrrrr
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SecNav spoke badly, and pissed A LOT of people off. He pissed A LOT of Marines off. Marines are very good a evolving. Very good at following direction from above. If SecDef says "All Combat Positions will be opened, unless an exemption is requested" we will follow that to the letter.
And that's exactly what happened.
What we're seeing now is the proverbial moving of the goalposts. It's a betrayal of the Senior/Subordinate relationship. And it's something SecNav doesn't even realize he's done.
And that's exactly what happened.
What we're seeing now is the proverbial moving of the goalposts. It's a betrayal of the Senior/Subordinate relationship. And it's something SecNav doesn't even realize he's done.
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SN Greg Wright
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS It's unfortunate that he will never see this, because I don't think it could be said any better. I'd give you all my upvotes if I could.
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Women a already in combat! May be not in combat arms, but they are in direct action with the enemy at some point in both AO's. We had female medic on our patrol team in 1-125FA in Iraq! Still don't see the big deal. Let the female service just like us males. If they want combat arm let them, but be careful what you ask for!
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LCDR (Join to see)
SN Greg Wright thanks for the tag on this. I went back and looked at what I thought was information on the study and realized it was a very very biased news outlet. I will not link the article because it was misleading. I thought I was reading a couple of facts that were an opinion/guess.
Appreciate the info Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Appreciate the info Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
http://cdn.sandiegouniontrib.com/news/documents/2015/09/10/MCFIP_1.pdf
LCDR (Join to see) Here's the actual summary. Waiting for final report to come out, so I can dive into the data.
LCDR (Join to see) Here's the actual summary. Waiting for final report to come out, so I can dive into the data.
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SN Greg Wright
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - Wow, that is, hands-down, the best empirical data I've seen on the subject. I strongly suggest you post a thread showing that, and discussing it.
LCDR (Join to see)
LCDR (Join to see)
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
SN Greg Wright I'm holding off until the Final Report comes out. This is just the summary, which without context may be misleading. It's good data, but it's Clif Notes.
We need more to make it truly valuable.
We need more to make it truly valuable.
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I am not sure how I feel about it right now. I looked into the study and it was done without much oversight. That doesn't mean it's wrong, but bias probably did exist. That said it's also crazy to toss it aside and not at least try to address the issues that were brought up on the report.
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LCDR (Join to see)
SN Greg Wright - I would look at the outcomes and address all the areas of concern or as you mentioned identify future studies for this aspects.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
LCDR (Join to see) This gets into some really muddy water when it comes to Oversight, especially when we talk about the short timelines imposed by SecDef & Congress. Without seeing the actual report, it's really hard to judge the controls.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS you're right on it does get to be muddy. In fact what I read turned out to be an opinion article not fact (which you couldn't tell from how it was written) so my comments about bias might not even be correct.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
LCDR (Join to see) Here's the summary (4 page) if that helps.
http://cdn.sandiegouniontrib.com/news/documents/2015/09/10/MCFIP_1.pdf
http://cdn.sandiegouniontrib.com/news/documents/2015/09/10/MCFIP_1.pdf
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I am not sure about this at this point SN Greg Wright. I certainly do not support the unbridled opening of all USMC infantry positions to women.
There has been a lot of socialization experiments within the military in the past few years. I am hoping for a more measured and thoughtful approach will be applied - legislated by Congress with input from the military.
Calls for Secretary Mabus to resign may be too early to do any real good. If he chooses to step aside that is another matter.
There has been a lot of socialization experiments within the military in the past few years. I am hoping for a more measured and thoughtful approach will be applied - legislated by Congress with input from the military.
Calls for Secretary Mabus to resign may be too early to do any real good. If he chooses to step aside that is another matter.
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PFC Daniel Starrett
Why, may I ask, do you "not support the unbridled opening of all USMC positions to women"? FACTUAL reasons please, not just personal beliefs.
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LTC Stephen F.
PFC Daniel Starrett - based on my 34 years of military service, the four years I spent at West Point as part of the first class which included women in each of the service academies, and my sons experience with 3/75 Ranger Bn.
In addition to being an infantry officer I ma a trained and experienced operations research systems analyst (ORSA) which is military FA 49.
1st. I saw what happened to the women of the first class at USMA.
Background: The nations resources were focused, the media was ever present, there was a massive effort to get highly qualified women to apply and be accepted; laws and regulations were changed; standards were developed for cadet uniforms, haircuts, medical and physical fitness, and barracks were modified to make a safer environment for the women and to be able to afford the some privacy; and enough women were recruited so that they would have no less than two in 25% of the companies the 1st coed class. While our total class attrition rate was over 36%, the attrition among the women was over 50%.
2nd. I was part of the social experiment which began in 1975 the year before West Point at the USMA prep School where women were introduced for the first time.
The physical fitness and medical standards for women had been established and periodically modified since WWII. The standards for men and women have been different for physical fitness which makes sense. A lot of scientific research has gone into that.
3rd. The USMC has already weighed in on this issue. My paraphrases of their position based on the study is that there are positions already open to women, there are probably some women who would excel in the close combat units, and the USMC will introduce women into selected positions [equivalent of duty MOS] when it is prudent to do so.
4th. I stated that I do not support the unbridled opening of all USMC positions to women because I have seen what happens when the powers on high make a decree which seems reasonable to them but is not supported by the facts and/or funding to accomplish the stated objective. Introducing women into close combat positions needs to incremented on a case by case basis with women who are fully capable of the range of missions required brought into specific units I buddy teams.
In addition to being an infantry officer I ma a trained and experienced operations research systems analyst (ORSA) which is military FA 49.
1st. I saw what happened to the women of the first class at USMA.
Background: The nations resources were focused, the media was ever present, there was a massive effort to get highly qualified women to apply and be accepted; laws and regulations were changed; standards were developed for cadet uniforms, haircuts, medical and physical fitness, and barracks were modified to make a safer environment for the women and to be able to afford the some privacy; and enough women were recruited so that they would have no less than two in 25% of the companies the 1st coed class. While our total class attrition rate was over 36%, the attrition among the women was over 50%.
2nd. I was part of the social experiment which began in 1975 the year before West Point at the USMA prep School where women were introduced for the first time.
The physical fitness and medical standards for women had been established and periodically modified since WWII. The standards for men and women have been different for physical fitness which makes sense. A lot of scientific research has gone into that.
3rd. The USMC has already weighed in on this issue. My paraphrases of their position based on the study is that there are positions already open to women, there are probably some women who would excel in the close combat units, and the USMC will introduce women into selected positions [equivalent of duty MOS] when it is prudent to do so.
4th. I stated that I do not support the unbridled opening of all USMC positions to women because I have seen what happens when the powers on high make a decree which seems reasonable to them but is not supported by the facts and/or funding to accomplish the stated objective. Introducing women into close combat positions needs to incremented on a case by case basis with women who are fully capable of the range of missions required brought into specific units I buddy teams.
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Elected or even appointed politicians ignore their uniformed commanders and senior enlisted at their risk. There's a reason the USMC doesn't want women in 0300 MOSs, and it isn't to perpetuate the old boys' club, although that perception is certainly there. No, this is about sacrificing our readiness, specifically the shock troop value of the Marine Corps, on the alter of political correctness and social experimentation. Whether or not that becomes law remains to be seen. But I'll say this: if ALL communities, all MOSs and all ratings are open to women, what say we amend the Constitution and have all women reaching the age of 18 sign up for Selective Service? How many takers do you think there'll be then?
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PFC Daniel Starrett
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - I DID read it and it specifically stated that the women performed their jobs magnificently and to standard, then went on to say "but they could not meet the same results as the men". That is discrimination. They meet the standard, but dont match the men so shouldnt be allowed in, is what that . Absolutely disgusting.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
PFC Daniel Starrett - that is not the same thing you said in the first response.
You used "MENS standards" as a phrase is is inaccuate and disingenuous.
The second response is correct. They dis not perform at the same level "as a class." That is NOT discrimination. That is data analysis.
Someone can perform well, but not as well as others, and still be more injury prone "as a a class" without there being discrimination or disgust. You are inserting emotion where none is needed because you don't understand the report.
You used "MENS standards" as a phrase is is inaccuate and disingenuous.
The second response is correct. They dis not perform at the same level "as a class." That is NOT discrimination. That is data analysis.
Someone can perform well, but not as well as others, and still be more injury prone "as a a class" without there being discrimination or disgust. You are inserting emotion where none is needed because you don't understand the report.
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PFC Daniel Starrett
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS - roflmao yes Sgt, it IS what I said with the exception of my substituting magnificent for exceptional by mistake. Still, same meaning though.
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
PFC Daniel Starrett - no it isn't. By using the words "mens standards" you change the context of the study. The study has no references to a mens' standard as it is a comparative analysis between an all male unit and a mixed unit. The defradation and injuries were noted at class and individual level.
You need to learn how to analyze data and read the report correctly. You are inferring things which were not said in the report, and perpetuating bad information through use of terminology which is both vague and inaccurate, but most importantly not in the report.
You need to learn how to analyze data and read the report correctly. You are inferring things which were not said in the report, and perpetuating bad information through use of terminology which is both vague and inaccurate, but most importantly not in the report.
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that congressman is a noob to his point, he needs to sit down, shut up and learn a few things and take his bigotted attitude and shove it.
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SN Greg Wright
LCpl Mark Lefler - No point of this post was aimed at women at all. Merely at a service secretary stabbing his service in the back without so much as a how-do-you-do.
Women are NOT lesser people, of course. But it is scientific, unarguable fact that the majority of women will have less physical strength than the majority of men. Of course there are exceptions. And those will be the ones that make it IF THEY WANT TO (because honestly, I don't see long lines of women lining up to be SF's, infantrymen, etc).
Women are NOT lesser people, of course. But it is scientific, unarguable fact that the majority of women will have less physical strength than the majority of men. Of course there are exceptions. And those will be the ones that make it IF THEY WANT TO (because honestly, I don't see long lines of women lining up to be SF's, infantrymen, etc).
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No I have confidence the Commandant and Mr Mabus can resolve this issue..But if not Mr Mabus just might resign on his own... I personally like both of these guys who have done some good things in their careers for the Navy & Marines..
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These women in the study were not properly trained. If a female Marine can make it through SOI, they should be given the opportunity to serve with an infantry unit. When I served with a company, there were many Male Marines who should not of been with an Infantry unit. My point is...If you can "toe the line", who cares what sex you are! Women in these billets is going to happen if you like it or not. Let's hurry up and get through the tape.
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CPO Sam Gilliland
Clark, you are right...don't know how they were trained I only assumed they were not 0300 trained.
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PFC Daniel Starrett
This is what I have said since the beginning of time. If the women can meet the minimum standards of the MOS in question (versus matching the men that are already in it), then they should be allowed in it.
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Dunkin' Donuts is my local idiot in eastern San Diego County. Second generation stupid. Whatever he backs I know the opposite is the better option.
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