Posted on Nov 7, 2014
Disrespected while correcting a Soldier, how would you handle this situation?
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Ok so there I was at a court-martial asking a Soldier why he was wearing ACUs and not ASUs. He started to catch an attitude, so I told him to go to parade rest. He turned away from me looking at my paralegal, putting his hands in his pockets.
My paralegal tells him that he does not need to be looking at him, but at me, because I was the one addressing him, and that he needs to show respect. As the Soldier continues to stare out at my paralegal with his hands in his pockets, I continue to correct him when a civilian comes out to where I was correcting the Soldier stating that she had work to do and I could "yell" at him some other time.
I was so mind boggled and dumbfounded because said civilian used to be in the military. I'm sorry, but the last time I checked the Soldier was given a direct order by a CPT and myself that the duty uniform for the court-martial was ASUs and an alternate uniform had to be approved by the judge, so I was doing my job by asking him why he was in the wrong uniform and then correcting him when he began to disrespect me.
I felt so disrespected I just walked away and sat in a room to cool off.
How would you have handled the situation?
My paralegal tells him that he does not need to be looking at him, but at me, because I was the one addressing him, and that he needs to show respect. As the Soldier continues to stare out at my paralegal with his hands in his pockets, I continue to correct him when a civilian comes out to where I was correcting the Soldier stating that she had work to do and I could "yell" at him some other time.
I was so mind boggled and dumbfounded because said civilian used to be in the military. I'm sorry, but the last time I checked the Soldier was given a direct order by a CPT and myself that the duty uniform for the court-martial was ASUs and an alternate uniform had to be approved by the judge, so I was doing my job by asking him why he was in the wrong uniform and then correcting him when he began to disrespect me.
I felt so disrespected I just walked away and sat in a room to cool off.
How would you have handled the situation?
Disrespect
Civilians
Counseling
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 380
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It is all about being serious...sometimes a flat deep monotone voice is more frightening than any amount of screaming or the threat of physical violence.
I would have looked at the soldier and said very calmly
"Would you prefer to have the next few charges added to your sheet before you walk into the Court Martial or would you prefer to finish this round of UCMJ action before we proceed to a completely new list of charges?"
Before the stupefied PFC could even begin to respond, I would then cut off any response by looking at the MP escorts and say "I'll need a statement from each of you on both this soldiers actions and the disruption caused by that civilian"
In the same deadpan voice I would call out to the civilian to remind her very clearly that she has a job courtesy of the United States Military. I would tell her that her conduct was going to be reported not only to her superiors but to the Post Civilian Personnel Office that had authorized her job in the first place. I would remind her that she needs to be keenly aware of the fact that she needs to stay out of any Military Discipline situation from now on until such time sa she is no longer employed by the US Military.
I would have looked at the soldier and said very calmly
"Would you prefer to have the next few charges added to your sheet before you walk into the Court Martial or would you prefer to finish this round of UCMJ action before we proceed to a completely new list of charges?"
Before the stupefied PFC could even begin to respond, I would then cut off any response by looking at the MP escorts and say "I'll need a statement from each of you on both this soldiers actions and the disruption caused by that civilian"
In the same deadpan voice I would call out to the civilian to remind her very clearly that she has a job courtesy of the United States Military. I would tell her that her conduct was going to be reported not only to her superiors but to the Post Civilian Personnel Office that had authorized her job in the first place. I would remind her that she needs to be keenly aware of the fact that she needs to stay out of any Military Discipline situation from now on until such time sa she is no longer employed by the US Military.
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If he was being mustard out or discharged he more than likely doesn't give a crap what the uniform of the day is in court.
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That's easy. You stop talking. You inform the judge that the defendant has reported in contempt. Have the judge convey the consequences. It's not on you to make him comply. If he insists on being insubordinate, then you allow him to face the consequences.
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I would have lit that civilian up! Plan and simple.. not her business anymore. I would have made sure that the soldier also got an added charge to what ever else he was facing..
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While not directly answering the question two incidents that directly relate to this situation come to mind. The first was no surprise to anyone other than the fact the sailor in question went as far as he did. The latter took everyone one by surprise almost every step of the way.
The first case occurred while I was briefly stationed at NAS Key West for FRAMP training. We were at the squadron for the day getting hands on training on our bird when it was announced that all personnel were to tie up whatever they were doing and stand to attention to orders. As it turned out the CO made it SOP to hold Captain's Mast in the hanger space so that everyone knew exactly what occurred first hand and were aware what to expect if ever they had to be the subject or a witness at a future proceedings. Most of the individuals presented themselves properly and in their Sunday best and were disposed of quickly and fairly. Then his turn came.
The first thing you noticed was that his summer crackerjacks looked like someone had used them to wash their car. He was wearing boondockers and his cover was several shades away from white.
He sauntered to his facing point and kind of swung through his turn coming up to his point and stood there at a slouch. It took the CMC two attempts to get him to uncover and present himself and then the CMC began to read the charges. For most of the subjects this stage had been fairly quick covering one or two charges, not in this case. The charges took close to 5 minutes to read beginning with over a hundred UA charges and ending with theft, possession, and assault charges. We watched as the CO looked this kid up and down and composed himself. I will try to repeat this as close as I can with over 30 years gone past.
"Son, it is obvious that you no longer wish to be in my Navy and frankly I find myself in agreement. But along the way you have decided to inflict on your shipmates a great deal of harm and disrespect and I think that should be answered before you part company with us. At this point in the proceeding I normally offer you the option of having your case heard by court marshal but in your case I am taking that choice away from you. It is not within the authority given to me for these proceedings to award you with correction to match the contempt you have heaped on my Navy. It is so ordered that you be held over until such time as a special court marshal can be convened."
By the time as the court marshal was convened I had transferred on to my command but some individuals who transferred a month or so later informed us that the young man would be a guest at a certain institution in Kansas for at least the next 5 years.
This incident mark the absolute height of disrespect I witnessed during my service.
As I said the second took everyone by surprise. We had gotten a young rent-a-crow in fresh from AFTA and FRAMP schools. He showed great promise both militarily and professionally. He flew through his Collateral Duty training fairly quickly and managed to place highly on his exams for AT2 and got frocked in the first increment. Our Division Chief was taking him under his wing and lining him up for the courses and qualifications he would need down the road. Soon after he moved into the PO2 quarters it all came apart. Twice a month the XO drew two numbers out of his hat and around a 5th of the command got to pee in a bottle. This month was our wonder kid's turn and unfortunately he came up positive. They retest as SOP and it was confirmed. Since he lived in the barracks a health and welfare was conducted and they came up with about 2 oz. of pot. Given his clean record the command decided to treat is as a simple possession case and everyone in the command knew the score on that count. DO your time, take your licks and the command allowed you to pick up and move on with no further retribution official or otherwise. He went to Captain's Mast and then it got weird. First, despite the fact that they were only applying the lesser charge of possession he opted for a court marshal, he then opted for a trial by his peers. And just as if he had decided to really stir things up he waived his JAG defender and brought a civilian lawyer in from the states. (Oh, BTW, we were in Spain at the time.)
Since he had decided to wave off the easy path NIS (This was before it was changed to NCIS) decided to do a full investigation. They found at least three people who admitted to having received pot from the subject so the charges went from simple possession to possession with intent to distribute and distribution.
His trial went predictably and then he handed out the cherry on this bizarre treat. In keeping with SOP after he was found guilty of all charges he was asked if he wanted to make a statement before sentencing. What came next took about 20 minutes and over 50 pages to record in the proceedings. He challenged the right of the military to make pot illegal and the board's right to pass judgement on him, and those were the high points. Needless to say this young man got to spend time in Leavenworth for an extended time as well. No one ever could make any sense of how this promising up and comer suddenly seemed to lose his mind and turn a simple administrative punishment that would have likely been a road bump in his career and turn it into a stretch in Leavenworth.
The first case occurred while I was briefly stationed at NAS Key West for FRAMP training. We were at the squadron for the day getting hands on training on our bird when it was announced that all personnel were to tie up whatever they were doing and stand to attention to orders. As it turned out the CO made it SOP to hold Captain's Mast in the hanger space so that everyone knew exactly what occurred first hand and were aware what to expect if ever they had to be the subject or a witness at a future proceedings. Most of the individuals presented themselves properly and in their Sunday best and were disposed of quickly and fairly. Then his turn came.
The first thing you noticed was that his summer crackerjacks looked like someone had used them to wash their car. He was wearing boondockers and his cover was several shades away from white.
He sauntered to his facing point and kind of swung through his turn coming up to his point and stood there at a slouch. It took the CMC two attempts to get him to uncover and present himself and then the CMC began to read the charges. For most of the subjects this stage had been fairly quick covering one or two charges, not in this case. The charges took close to 5 minutes to read beginning with over a hundred UA charges and ending with theft, possession, and assault charges. We watched as the CO looked this kid up and down and composed himself. I will try to repeat this as close as I can with over 30 years gone past.
"Son, it is obvious that you no longer wish to be in my Navy and frankly I find myself in agreement. But along the way you have decided to inflict on your shipmates a great deal of harm and disrespect and I think that should be answered before you part company with us. At this point in the proceeding I normally offer you the option of having your case heard by court marshal but in your case I am taking that choice away from you. It is not within the authority given to me for these proceedings to award you with correction to match the contempt you have heaped on my Navy. It is so ordered that you be held over until such time as a special court marshal can be convened."
By the time as the court marshal was convened I had transferred on to my command but some individuals who transferred a month or so later informed us that the young man would be a guest at a certain institution in Kansas for at least the next 5 years.
This incident mark the absolute height of disrespect I witnessed during my service.
As I said the second took everyone by surprise. We had gotten a young rent-a-crow in fresh from AFTA and FRAMP schools. He showed great promise both militarily and professionally. He flew through his Collateral Duty training fairly quickly and managed to place highly on his exams for AT2 and got frocked in the first increment. Our Division Chief was taking him under his wing and lining him up for the courses and qualifications he would need down the road. Soon after he moved into the PO2 quarters it all came apart. Twice a month the XO drew two numbers out of his hat and around a 5th of the command got to pee in a bottle. This month was our wonder kid's turn and unfortunately he came up positive. They retest as SOP and it was confirmed. Since he lived in the barracks a health and welfare was conducted and they came up with about 2 oz. of pot. Given his clean record the command decided to treat is as a simple possession case and everyone in the command knew the score on that count. DO your time, take your licks and the command allowed you to pick up and move on with no further retribution official or otherwise. He went to Captain's Mast and then it got weird. First, despite the fact that they were only applying the lesser charge of possession he opted for a court marshal, he then opted for a trial by his peers. And just as if he had decided to really stir things up he waived his JAG defender and brought a civilian lawyer in from the states. (Oh, BTW, we were in Spain at the time.)
Since he had decided to wave off the easy path NIS (This was before it was changed to NCIS) decided to do a full investigation. They found at least three people who admitted to having received pot from the subject so the charges went from simple possession to possession with intent to distribute and distribution.
His trial went predictably and then he handed out the cherry on this bizarre treat. In keeping with SOP after he was found guilty of all charges he was asked if he wanted to make a statement before sentencing. What came next took about 20 minutes and over 50 pages to record in the proceedings. He challenged the right of the military to make pot illegal and the board's right to pass judgement on him, and those were the high points. Needless to say this young man got to spend time in Leavenworth for an extended time as well. No one ever could make any sense of how this promising up and comer suddenly seemed to lose his mind and turn a simple administrative punishment that would have likely been a road bump in his career and turn it into a stretch in Leavenworth.
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I would have apologized to the civilian, taken trooper goofy outside, and then laid into him. The office hallways, on or near legal is not the best place to for wall to wall counseling. Too many legal minds who would see and hear what transpired, hard to sell the whole he drove his front teeth into my helmet argument. lol I see a bag full of camouflage poles coming his way...not that I would ever condone such a practice.
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I would of told him the uniform and directed him to change if not then I would have had the paralegal write a statement and then present to the judge. Let the little smart ass tell the judge why he was in the wrong uniform. Then process the paper work for another discpline action.
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After I had reprimanded the soldier and ordered him to get into the uniform of the day, I would have taken the civilian aside and reprimanded her/him for interfering in a military matter and then reported the civilians actions to his/her superior. The last thing I would do is "walk away" before resolving the situation. As a leader it is your duty to set the example for others and allowing a junior enlisted to disrespect you without immediate reprimand reflects in your lack of leadership. Our military must always have good order and discipline in order to function at the highest level and when those in a position of leadership allow any act of disrespect to go uncorrected we lose good order and discipline and diminish the effectiveness of our mission.
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Not sure what they do in the Army in situations like this, but in my 23+ years in the Navy this situation would never have taken place. First, an officer doesn't "ask" an enlisted why he is out if uniform, he tells him to get into the proper uniform. If the enlisted refuses or doesn't follow the direct order, then there will be an NJP following a report chit. I also know if hat in the Navy if a junior enlisted showed up to a courts martial in the wrong uniform his CPO would be explaining to the officer why his man wasn't counselled on the proper uniform before he got a there.
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