Posted on Nov 7, 2014
Disrespected while correcting a Soldier, how would you handle this situation?
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Ok so there I was at a court-martial asking a Soldier why he was wearing ACUs and not ASUs. He started to catch an attitude, so I told him to go to parade rest. He turned away from me looking at my paralegal, putting his hands in his pockets.
My paralegal tells him that he does not need to be looking at him, but at me, because I was the one addressing him, and that he needs to show respect. As the Soldier continues to stare out at my paralegal with his hands in his pockets, I continue to correct him when a civilian comes out to where I was correcting the Soldier stating that she had work to do and I could "yell" at him some other time.
I was so mind boggled and dumbfounded because said civilian used to be in the military. I'm sorry, but the last time I checked the Soldier was given a direct order by a CPT and myself that the duty uniform for the court-martial was ASUs and an alternate uniform had to be approved by the judge, so I was doing my job by asking him why he was in the wrong uniform and then correcting him when he began to disrespect me.
I felt so disrespected I just walked away and sat in a room to cool off.
How would you have handled the situation?
My paralegal tells him that he does not need to be looking at him, but at me, because I was the one addressing him, and that he needs to show respect. As the Soldier continues to stare out at my paralegal with his hands in his pockets, I continue to correct him when a civilian comes out to where I was correcting the Soldier stating that she had work to do and I could "yell" at him some other time.
I was so mind boggled and dumbfounded because said civilian used to be in the military. I'm sorry, but the last time I checked the Soldier was given a direct order by a CPT and myself that the duty uniform for the court-martial was ASUs and an alternate uniform had to be approved by the judge, so I was doing my job by asking him why he was in the wrong uniform and then correcting him when he began to disrespect me.
I felt so disrespected I just walked away and sat in a room to cool off.
How would you have handled the situation?
Disrespect
Civilians
Counseling
Edited 11 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 380
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LTC Jason Mackay
SFC (Join to see) ICE complaint for the Civilian. Senior Commander and GC sees those. Just saying.
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LCpl Waliq Knolle
MAJ (Join to see) from losing pay multiple times, I’ll tell you it absolutely doesn’t fix anything.
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SSG Marciano Gonzalez
My sentiments exactly in todays army Iwould be court martialed too. because the wall to wall counseling would be in session.
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SPC John Bush
This was the reason I decided not to make the Army my career, although I had intended to. Enlisted in 74, had always wanted to join, my father retired from the Army. I remember many of the stations that my family was allowed to be with him and especially his ETS station at Fort McPherson. It wasn’t the same Army I had grown up in. The last straw was an E-3 telling the company commander, a Captain, that he was not going to the field and there wasn’t anything he could do about it. He got booted, which is probably what he wanted anyway. That none of the senior enlisted present did anything at the time or later was just not acceptable to me. He did receive some behind the barracks encouragement from several others at a later date. Never regretted my time in the Army and have lamented many times getting out
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SGT Leon Riege
SSG Marciano Gonzalez - since court was not in session you could have utilized the time to get in a little hand to hand training
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Without knowing the specific details of your position and the relationship of your position to the soldier out of uniform and that of the civilian, it is hard to definitively say what you should have done. However, assuming that you acted in a professional manner in correcting the soldier and he copped an attitude, I think you were certainly in your right to carry out the correction to a logical conclusion, without interference of the civilian. As such, I probably would have informed the civilian that this was a "military matter' and that she need not be involved. I then would have carried on with the correction, possibly moving it outside or another close-by location.
If, on the other hand, none of that worked, I would report the incident to my chain of command, with the expectation that they would follow-up with the proper personnel to ensure it did not happen again. I assure you that if one of my soldiers/NCOs/officers informed me of a situation like that, I would take appropriate action.
I have never been one to back down or retreat, if I was right, but discretion must always be exercised. There is a time and place for everything and that may not have been the right time and place to prove a point, even if you are right, but it certainly does not mean that you forfeit your right to follow-up at a later time and place.
I applaud you for not simply ignoring a violation you noticed, as well as "cooling down" rather than going off. I would certainly follow-up, however. It sounds like a soldier and a civilian need some counseling by their supervisory chain.
If, on the other hand, none of that worked, I would report the incident to my chain of command, with the expectation that they would follow-up with the proper personnel to ensure it did not happen again. I assure you that if one of my soldiers/NCOs/officers informed me of a situation like that, I would take appropriate action.
I have never been one to back down or retreat, if I was right, but discretion must always be exercised. There is a time and place for everything and that may not have been the right time and place to prove a point, even if you are right, but it certainly does not mean that you forfeit your right to follow-up at a later time and place.
I applaud you for not simply ignoring a violation you noticed, as well as "cooling down" rather than going off. I would certainly follow-up, however. It sounds like a soldier and a civilian need some counseling by their supervisory chain.
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SSG Jim Husselman
SSG Marcus Brothers I too have seen CSM/CMD get upset over proper corrective actions and on the spot corrections by other uniformed individuals and I think it is a major flaw in today's military service! I retired after 24 years of military service and I was trained and brought up by old school NCO's and OFFICERS which held the maximum effective range of an excuse mentality and I grew to understand why. Today's younger military personnel (new or newer) to the military do not understand what should always be maintained by service personnel and that is honor, commitment, candor, ICMJ and bullets do not care what our thoughts and opinions are the rules and respect factor is the same all the time in service. We do not have time nor room for the selective service member personality meaning we do not get to follow the rules when we want and not when we dont because as we know know it can and has gotten service personal killing in combat and we train as we fight! I dont believe that because a Soldier is undergoing a UCMJ or belongs to anouther command that they should not be corrected on the spot which the CPT IMHO handled well short of follow up after the fact. The civilian was most definitely out of thier lane and needs to understand the UCMJ does not give them a free pass to intervene in military business and probably needs some corrective action from her boss.
Too many let the younger troops actions slide hince why they believe they can disrespect thier seniors.
Too many let the younger troops actions slide hince why they believe they can disrespect thier seniors.
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SSG (Join to see)
MSgt Owens, ASU is Army Service Uniform which refers to the dress uniform used by the Army. It consists of the dark blue jacket and light blue pants. The ACU is the Army Combat Uniform which is the usual duty uniform worn.
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If I were present when a civilian interfered with the lawful duties of an NCO making a uniform correction, I would have gone Drill Sergeant on her.
That is simply not ok.
That is simply not ok.
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CWO2 Richard Rose
Before I received my commission I was at a major joint command in D.C. As luck would have it I was also assigned the duty of Senior Enlisted Advisor for my directorate. We had primarily E-7 and above, so very few problems was the norm. I had have an E-6 challenge me on a grooming matter. (I had grooming regs for all branches of service in my desk.) She had been a bit of a pain in the rump with other project managers and engineers. Well, I directed her to go to the Office of the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy and obtain a copy of the Navy grooming standards. After she departed I heard clapping coming from several cubicles. A Marine Major in the directorate came to my desk and said he had been waiting for her to get put in her place. I thought I was being very quiet and nobody else heard. From that time forward she straightened her act up.
One of the problems with joint assignments is the annual fitness reports or evaluations for your prospective service. Civilian GS/GM could write them for everyone, except Navy Chiefs and above. They were to be signed by the senior ranking naval officer in the command. That was a three star Vice Admiral.
Back to the original comments about the civil service directing military personnel. I was told by one that he was the equivalent for a LTC (O5) and I just asked him when did he receive his commission? He attempted to direct me to refer to him as "Sir or Mr so and so.) I told him that respect is earned. I never had a problem with correcting a service member. I do believe in chastising in private and praising in public.
One of the problems with joint assignments is the annual fitness reports or evaluations for your prospective service. Civilian GS/GM could write them for everyone, except Navy Chiefs and above. They were to be signed by the senior ranking naval officer in the command. That was a three star Vice Admiral.
Back to the original comments about the civil service directing military personnel. I was told by one that he was the equivalent for a LTC (O5) and I just asked him when did he receive his commission? He attempted to direct me to refer to him as "Sir or Mr so and so.) I told him that respect is earned. I never had a problem with correcting a service member. I do believe in chastising in private and praising in public.
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CPT David Quinn
Lighten up on the Capt, we wouldn't expect anymore from the Dept of the Navy would we?
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SSG McLamb, good job taking a breather. I would document the entire incident with statements from witnesses and move to have a Article 15 initiated on the Soldier. Now for the civilian. I would let her know that it is not her place to interfere with NCO correcting the disrespectful behavior of a Soldier and then I would recommend that she should return to her office.
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CCMSgt (Join to see)
There are avenues to correct this. And, it's becoming easier to remove the frequent offenders from positions.
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I would have told the civilian to mind their business while you minded yours- yours being the on-the-spot correction of a disrespectful troop. Now me being me, it would have been a VERY direct "do not interfere with the business of Soldiers and I will discuss this with you after I am finished here". Anything other than immediate compliance and I would have told the CPT to please handle the person attempting to obstruct me from my duties as a NCO. At any rate, I would most assuredly snatch that civilian up at another time and have a "come to Jesus" with them about proper protocol and how the military does and DOES NOT work.
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SFC Peter Cyprian
SGT (Join to see) - I would say "don't confuse your rank with my authority" on that particular observation. A GS-7 is not equivalent to an officer- not even close. A GS-7 goes from equivalency of E-6 to E-9 depending on the step. As a SFC I would STILL have that conversation with the civilian.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT (Anonymous) - A GS-7 may be the rank equivalent of an upper echelon military member, but that rank equivalency does not convey to any civilian personnel rank or authority over military personnel.
While GS members can be, and are, in 'supervisory positions' over military members, overall authority for any instruction, task, punishment, etc. is still withheld by a uniformed member of the military. Even should a GS member be writing the annual evaluation, there will be at least ONE uniformed member of the military that signs off on it.
So, overall, while oftentimes discretion is the better part of valor, a GS employee (regardless of level) would have absolutely ZERO say in this matter and even the newest Corporal would be well within their right to constructively convey to said employee that this was a military matter and kindly return from whence they came.
While GS members can be, and are, in 'supervisory positions' over military members, overall authority for any instruction, task, punishment, etc. is still withheld by a uniformed member of the military. Even should a GS member be writing the annual evaluation, there will be at least ONE uniformed member of the military that signs off on it.
So, overall, while oftentimes discretion is the better part of valor, a GS employee (regardless of level) would have absolutely ZERO say in this matter and even the newest Corporal would be well within their right to constructively convey to said employee that this was a military matter and kindly return from whence they came.
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CWO2 Richard Rose
I have kicked civilian tech type GS-13 out of my spaces and to never return. He went crying to the commander that I kicked him out. The commander just told him to get his stuff and get off of the ship.
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SMSgt Sheila Berg
I would have had a quiet talk with the Civilian afterward. Document the conversation. If the attitude continued would report to their Union rep.
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And people wonder why there were "paint locker attitude adjustments"..........
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PO1 Aaron Baltosser
Some people learn by hearing words and getting direct feedback. Others, well, others have to learn the hard way because that is their learning style.
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SGT (Join to see)
In my Humble Opinion, from 21 yrs in total TIS starting in 1983, I think they screwed the pooch when they took away the powers of the NCO's to discipline their troops properly
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SPC Travis McGaha
No, they screwed the pooch when everyone E-5 and above was automatically an NCO in the Army. Not everyone is a leader, and that change diluted the pool of real leaders to the point that "they" had to take away disciplinary powers because of abuses. Too many chiefs not Indians.
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You handled yourself professionally by walking away to give yourself time to cool down. I have been in this same position before myself.
In response to the disrespectful Soldier, I'd have gladly let him know I'm not the one to disrespect. Seeing as how he made the cognitive choice NOT to listen to protocol, it would only be too easy to write him up (yet again, I'm assuming from the situation he's already gotten himself into) and discipline him that way. I only ask a Soldier to do something once, then I tell them to....if they still refuse to listen, I let my hands and keyboard write up a 4856 to go on record and have it in black and white. What I won't EVER do is argue with a Soldier.
As for the civilian, I'd have kindly remind her (because she used to wear the uniform) that I am doing my duty as an NCO to enforce good order and discipline when it comes to Soldiers wanting to get outta line. As for her doing her job, she can continue doing it because me disciplining a Soldier shouldn't keep her from doing what she's supposed to do (if it does, then she may wanna consider working somewhere else if NCOs disciplining Soldiers easily distracts her). If she wants to take it to that place, I'd be more than happy to step outside and discuss with her the parameters of my job and to let her know that the tone she decided to use with me won't be tolerated.
In response to the disrespectful Soldier, I'd have gladly let him know I'm not the one to disrespect. Seeing as how he made the cognitive choice NOT to listen to protocol, it would only be too easy to write him up (yet again, I'm assuming from the situation he's already gotten himself into) and discipline him that way. I only ask a Soldier to do something once, then I tell them to....if they still refuse to listen, I let my hands and keyboard write up a 4856 to go on record and have it in black and white. What I won't EVER do is argue with a Soldier.
As for the civilian, I'd have kindly remind her (because she used to wear the uniform) that I am doing my duty as an NCO to enforce good order and discipline when it comes to Soldiers wanting to get outta line. As for her doing her job, she can continue doing it because me disciplining a Soldier shouldn't keep her from doing what she's supposed to do (if it does, then she may wanna consider working somewhere else if NCOs disciplining Soldiers easily distracts her). If she wants to take it to that place, I'd be more than happy to step outside and discuss with her the parameters of my job and to let her know that the tone she decided to use with me won't be tolerated.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see), luckily his command handled him and the leadership over the civilian handled her.
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Cpl (Join to see)
The only way I can reasonably see the correction of the soldier interfering with the civilians job is if her job directly involves the soldier in some way
Otherwise I don't believe her
Otherwise I don't believe her
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LCpl Cody Collins
In Marine Corps boot camp, they didn't teach us to "walk away . They taught us to "end it " .
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I think a 'accidental' elbow to the bridge of his nose would of been a good start. "Oh thank you for breaking my fall...sorry about your face"...
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SGT Jeremy Nelson
The only time I ever had a soldier be that disrespectful to me (he actually cursed at me) I put him on the ground and shook him hard enough to bounce his kevlar off the concrete. While several older members of the unit to include the BTL XO thought it was great, I had to fight off a court martial for several months, using every favor I had gained the prior five years. Eventually being moved down the street to another BTL. I don't recommend it.
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SFC Freddie Porter
SPC (Join to see) - what professional means to a civilian and what it means to a soldier are frequently two (2) different things entirely. In today's incorporated military, there seems to be a confusion about the difference. Follow my orders right now, this instant and maybe I'll explain why later if I feel it's important versus explaining the order before you feel it's important to obey it.
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SP5 Larry Morris
yelling never was a good reason asking why then telling someone to fix it works better
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Falls under general military authority. Correcting a uniform is everyone's business. As for the civilian, if they interfere with a military issue, they can be removed from post. If they are really stupid about it they can wind up facing a federal charge. Though I must confess the temptation to adjust the soldier's headspace and timing on the spot might have overcome me.
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SGT Mark Grier
You don't know what you are talking about. They could move the civ to another assignment but just telling someone that I'm just going back to the office that's no big deal. There is no law that says we have to play military it's the reason we took the job in the first place. And any NCO is ill advised to try to go NCO on a civilian. You can lose your rank faster than we can be fired. Especially if that civilian is a 50 % vet.
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Cpl Steven Wilson
Unless she IS the lawyer, she can wait. If she is, advise HER to get him in the correct uniform. She has to work in his best interest.
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GySgt Gunnar Ulfsax
You are 100% spot on, as far as uniform corrections go CSM! I used to get so po'd when a NCO would say "their not my Marine"! If they are lower rank, I don't give a shit what unit they belong to..... if they are wrong..... they're wrong! End of discussion! If they can't handle wearing the rank.... I would find someone that could of!
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SGT Leon Riege
SGT Mark Grier - sgm generally know what they are about , but then again when they get on the horn people listen
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