Posted on Oct 24, 2017
Do cadets actually outrank non-commissioned officers?
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I suppose this is a question only in the Army. For a Marine, until you earn the title, and actually rate a salute, they better not come at an NCO sideways, or risk getting their feelings hurt. The title MARINE means something, cadet.."not so much.
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Cadets that insist that they outrank non-commissioned officers do all right until they find themselves in a combat situation where they have an unusually low life expectancy because they too often choose to ignore the advice of their combat veteran non-commissioned officers.
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PFC Loren Allgood
Forgive me sir, but are you saying that cadets are sometimes deployed to combat environments?
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Lt Col John Culley
VMI cadets fought for the Confederacy at the Battle of New Market on May 15,1864.
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Do cadets outrank NCOs? Yes, strictly speaking.
Would a cadet actually trying to pull said rank on an active-duty NCO in the real world be pretty much the same thing as completely taking leave of their senses and/or succumbing to an overwhelming subconscious death wish? Yes, without question.
No man ever attains a rank/pay grade so high up in the enlisted rank structure that they aren't obliged to render all the basic military courtesies afforded the most junior officer: address them as "sir," render a salute, occasionally stand at attention when appropriate...all that stuff that makes being an officer fun.
A senior-ranking SNCO doesn't need to be reminded or told to do these things, because he acknowledges that by virtue of his rank and place in the overall command structure, one of his most important responsibilities is to set an example for the junior enlisted as to how a military professional conducts himself that is worth emulating. They must also avoid doing anything that undermines an officers authority in the eyes of those under his command; failing to show an officer a proper degree of deference is certainly one of those things.
That said: no cadet, or even a newly-minted "Butterbar" Lieutenant in his right mind should ever be foolhardy enough to try and lean on, push around, or bust the chops of, say, a Master Sergeant or Sergeant Major.
Real authority can come from a few different sources; one of the most sacred, esteemed. and respected sources would be what we in the Corps used to call (and prolly still do) "time in." There is absolutely *nothing* to be found in an officer commission or promotion warrant that carries more weight of authority or evokes more genuine respect than 25-30 years' experience and the wisdom that such a length of service bestows.
When I reported to 2nd Tank Bn/2nd MarDiv back in the summer or '88, the senior NCO was a fellow by the name of Master GySgt Sloane. The guy was a bona-fide, straight-up friggin' legend at 2nd Tanks; 30 years on since then, I and many of the guys of my Facebook "Friends" list who I served with still talk about him every now and then.
He'd been in the Corps so long that I think he may have been among the last of the so-called "Montford Point Marines;" during WW2 and Korea, Montford Point was where black recruits went for basic training in the still-segregated Marine Corps (and Sloane-- you guessed it-- is black) It was rumored at the time that he served under the Commandant back when he was a Lieutenant (which was Gen. Al Grey) and that they were friends.
Nobody-- and I mean *NOBODY*-- at 2nd Tanks would ever dare to sweat the guy; not the platoon commanders, not the company commanders, and so far as I know, not even the Battalion CO. He had the kind of juice within the Corps that only a tiny fraction of senior Marine SNCOs could claim.
My first encounter with "Top" Sloane was a battalion training exercise at Ft. Pickett, VA; it was my first "deployment," if you could call it that. Anyhow: the day before it kicked off, most of the Marines from 2nd Tanks assembled in a open field so that the Battalion CO and Top Sloane could a pep-talk.
Sloanes speech started off thus:
"Good afternoon Marines. As most of you know, I am Master GySgt Sloane. For those of you new Marines who recently joined the battalion, I am the "a**hole," the "motherf**ker," the "dumbass ni**er" you read about on the walls when you take a piss in the tank park head. So now ya know.
Now then: for all you Lieutenants out here who think you know more than me, I recommend you take your asses over there [points to the distant horizon] and stay on the other side of that mountain until it comes time to pack up our s**t and go home."
A true legend indeed.
Would a cadet actually trying to pull said rank on an active-duty NCO in the real world be pretty much the same thing as completely taking leave of their senses and/or succumbing to an overwhelming subconscious death wish? Yes, without question.
No man ever attains a rank/pay grade so high up in the enlisted rank structure that they aren't obliged to render all the basic military courtesies afforded the most junior officer: address them as "sir," render a salute, occasionally stand at attention when appropriate...all that stuff that makes being an officer fun.
A senior-ranking SNCO doesn't need to be reminded or told to do these things, because he acknowledges that by virtue of his rank and place in the overall command structure, one of his most important responsibilities is to set an example for the junior enlisted as to how a military professional conducts himself that is worth emulating. They must also avoid doing anything that undermines an officers authority in the eyes of those under his command; failing to show an officer a proper degree of deference is certainly one of those things.
That said: no cadet, or even a newly-minted "Butterbar" Lieutenant in his right mind should ever be foolhardy enough to try and lean on, push around, or bust the chops of, say, a Master Sergeant or Sergeant Major.
Real authority can come from a few different sources; one of the most sacred, esteemed. and respected sources would be what we in the Corps used to call (and prolly still do) "time in." There is absolutely *nothing* to be found in an officer commission or promotion warrant that carries more weight of authority or evokes more genuine respect than 25-30 years' experience and the wisdom that such a length of service bestows.
When I reported to 2nd Tank Bn/2nd MarDiv back in the summer or '88, the senior NCO was a fellow by the name of Master GySgt Sloane. The guy was a bona-fide, straight-up friggin' legend at 2nd Tanks; 30 years on since then, I and many of the guys of my Facebook "Friends" list who I served with still talk about him every now and then.
He'd been in the Corps so long that I think he may have been among the last of the so-called "Montford Point Marines;" during WW2 and Korea, Montford Point was where black recruits went for basic training in the still-segregated Marine Corps (and Sloane-- you guessed it-- is black) It was rumored at the time that he served under the Commandant back when he was a Lieutenant (which was Gen. Al Grey) and that they were friends.
Nobody-- and I mean *NOBODY*-- at 2nd Tanks would ever dare to sweat the guy; not the platoon commanders, not the company commanders, and so far as I know, not even the Battalion CO. He had the kind of juice within the Corps that only a tiny fraction of senior Marine SNCOs could claim.
My first encounter with "Top" Sloane was a battalion training exercise at Ft. Pickett, VA; it was my first "deployment," if you could call it that. Anyhow: the day before it kicked off, most of the Marines from 2nd Tanks assembled in a open field so that the Battalion CO and Top Sloane could a pep-talk.
Sloanes speech started off thus:
"Good afternoon Marines. As most of you know, I am Master GySgt Sloane. For those of you new Marines who recently joined the battalion, I am the "a**hole," the "motherf**ker," the "dumbass ni**er" you read about on the walls when you take a piss in the tank park head. So now ya know.
Now then: for all you Lieutenants out here who think you know more than me, I recommend you take your asses over there [points to the distant horizon] and stay on the other side of that mountain until it comes time to pack up our s**t and go home."
A true legend indeed.
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There goes "There is no such thing as a STUPID question " LOL Merry Xmas to all CW3 GMJ
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Here's an egghead civilian answer: according to sociology there are four kinds of authority:
-Traditional: Man's obedience to God, a child's obedience to his parents, and a limited few other examples.
-Rational/Legal: Position power. My rank is higher than yours, you follow directions from the policeman who pulls you over does so because you understand he has this job for legal reasons, etc.
-Expertise: People follow you because you know what you're doing and they recognize the value of responding to that expertise.
-Charisma: People follow you because they like you and want to be liked by you, or at least have your approval.
Any leader who relies solely on Position power is doomed. You need to develop expertise and wield charisma, and if you look at any organization, you will see that most of the time, the best leaders have charisma and expertise to lean on and don't require office in order to lead others.
Cadets rarely have more than office, and that's why no one follows their lead except lower-ranking cadets. Once they learn a thing or two, usually from NCO's, and show some confidence and personality, they will start to deserve to be followed.
It's not a military explanation, but it's how I explain it to my Sea Scouts. (I was the Skipper at the Coast Guard Academy and worked with their Cadet Scoutmaster Council. Usually no one but a daisy fresh Cadet 4/c is going to play that game with a noncom. If you don't learn quick at any academy, you don't make it.)
-Traditional: Man's obedience to God, a child's obedience to his parents, and a limited few other examples.
-Rational/Legal: Position power. My rank is higher than yours, you follow directions from the policeman who pulls you over does so because you understand he has this job for legal reasons, etc.
-Expertise: People follow you because you know what you're doing and they recognize the value of responding to that expertise.
-Charisma: People follow you because they like you and want to be liked by you, or at least have your approval.
Any leader who relies solely on Position power is doomed. You need to develop expertise and wield charisma, and if you look at any organization, you will see that most of the time, the best leaders have charisma and expertise to lean on and don't require office in order to lead others.
Cadets rarely have more than office, and that's why no one follows their lead except lower-ranking cadets. Once they learn a thing or two, usually from NCO's, and show some confidence and personality, they will start to deserve to be followed.
It's not a military explanation, but it's how I explain it to my Sea Scouts. (I was the Skipper at the Coast Guard Academy and worked with their Cadet Scoutmaster Council. Usually no one but a daisy fresh Cadet 4/c is going to play that game with a noncom. If you don't learn quick at any academy, you don't make it.)
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MAJ Jack Newton
Respect is commanded by ones positive example. REAL Respect cannot be DEMANDED at the point of intimidation by rank, wealth or fame.
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Technically, it's true. They just simply are not in your chain of command. Tell your company commander why weapons didn't get cleaned and crypto equipment locked up and inventoried before Friday liberty by saying "Cadet Lieutenant Jones said we didn't have to!". I want to sell the tickets for THAT show! Captain Schmuckatelli is going to have ALL lieutenants and SNCOs in his/her office for a group ass-chewing! As he/she should.
For all intents and purposes, I have always thought of them as interns. Not once have I seen a cadet company commander or midshipman in charge of a battleship. I think that there is probably too much focus on rank in this regard. NCOs and SNCOs should willfully go out of their way to work with cadets/midshipmen and teach them how things work. Cadets/midshipmen should be seeking out NCOs and SNCOs to learn as well. This is your chance to teach officers what us enlisted folks do, on and off duty. The challenges, the successes, etc. Very soon, they WILL be the lieutenants and ensigns supervising platoons, departments, etc. This is your shot as enlisted personnel, to shape your future commanders. They will leave the academy or ROTC program as commissioned officers thinking "wow, I am going to show THEM a thing or two", or "wow, we have some seriously professional people in the enlisted ranks." Which do you want?
For all intents and purposes, I have always thought of them as interns. Not once have I seen a cadet company commander or midshipman in charge of a battleship. I think that there is probably too much focus on rank in this regard. NCOs and SNCOs should willfully go out of their way to work with cadets/midshipmen and teach them how things work. Cadets/midshipmen should be seeking out NCOs and SNCOs to learn as well. This is your chance to teach officers what us enlisted folks do, on and off duty. The challenges, the successes, etc. Very soon, they WILL be the lieutenants and ensigns supervising platoons, departments, etc. This is your shot as enlisted personnel, to shape your future commanders. They will leave the academy or ROTC program as commissioned officers thinking "wow, I am going to show THEM a thing or two", or "wow, we have some seriously professional people in the enlisted ranks." Which do you want?
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MAJ Jack Newton
I was an intern at BAMC 1970-1971. Making rounds one morning a pretty patient said to me," Hey, you, almost a doctor, I need to talk to you." It would have been okay except my fellow intern and all residents and staff were with me.
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