Posted on Oct 24, 2017
Do cadets actually outrank non-commissioned officers?
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I deal with cadets a lot, and they insist they out "rank" every NCO in the army. My usual response is somewhere around the guides of "uh-huh." Can I get some clarity of this?
Posted 8 y ago
Responses: 1044
Yes it is in the regulations and I actually looked it up because someone tried to tell me that cadets also outrank warrant officers but that is not true.
This is how the rank system actually goes and it is stated in the regulations:
1. Enlisted
2. Cadet
3. Warrant officers
4. Officers
This is how the rank system actually goes and it is stated in the regulations:
1. Enlisted
2. Cadet
3. Warrant officers
4. Officers
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So as a Cadet,in the Guard, they hold a rank of E5. I don't have any of my Joe's call then SGT. But they do hold the respect of an NCO. Calling them Sir or Maam, they don't have that honor yet.
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COL Daniel Lindsey
Unless they are early commissioned guard Guard or Reserve due to their participation in the simultaneous program they are paid as an E-5 and many times used a brevit SGTs in their MOS. After completion of first year and six week summer camp— most are early commissioned as Second Lt. In their units acting as intern platoon leaders in units of their primary MOS until they Complete their last year of ROTC requirements— They then are Commissioned as federal recognized 2nd Lt.
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As a cadet, I always behaved towards detachment Cadre NCOs as if I were a raw recruit, which of course I nearly was. My Dad was a 28 year retired AF and Army NCO whose last posting was as 1SGT for a large SAC maintenance squadron. I learned a few lessons watching butterbars fail due to their own unawareness of their ignorance - and I was a LOT less ignorant than some of the know-it all upperclassmen when I was an underclassman (like one who insisted an early 1980s F-15B could deliver nuclear air-to-ground ordnance, despite a lack of a proper targeting system or Permissive Action Linkages). I figured even the SRA clerk had a few years on active duty to figure out the way the real world worked, and knew that in the AF, the real leadership at the squadron level in non-flying units was the senior NCOs, since most officers were spare pilots parked in a billet to keep them on active duty as combat replacements if needed rather than trained specialists in things like aircraft maintenance or logistics.
Years later as a college professor, I had a contract to work on MEDCAP issues for the COIN/Stability operations doctrine for Jim Mattis' JFCOM - the military members of our group were O-6s or higher (except for an AF O-4 physician on my project), and the background materials sent when I signed the contract stated that I was considered a simulated O-6/7 (not bad for a guy who washed out of AFROTC due to asthma found at his commissioning physical). I STILL treated the mostly Marine NCOs we has supporting us with the utmost respect and, in their areas of expertise, deference. A little courtesy and respect goes a long way when, for example, you need a batch of Powerpoint slides printed for distribution or access to a quiet meeting room - or an honest critique from a combat experienced NCO on the feasibility of a non-kinetic tactic at the grunt-eye level. Not coincidentally, EVERY decent general officer I worked with had the same attitude, including Isreali Aref Benny Gantz (then their defense attache, later the Chief of the IDF General Staff), Chaos himself, and a recently retired Marine LTG who had commanded JTF-Africa in the process of turning it into AfriCom.
Good leaders know they are not experts in everything and respect the abilities of even the junior enlisted - and get more out of their men because they show that respect. As a kid, my Dad, then an E-6 with a line number for E-7, was the President of the riding club at Barksdale. The stall across the hall from our mare's housed the gelding owned by the wife of the 8AF commander, LTG Dick Lawson. Dad and I were mucking out Starlett's stall one day and the general came in and started working on cleaning out theirs. Dad said "Good morning, sir" and was promptly corrected. General Lawson told him that he was a general in uniform, but at the stables Dad was the club President and the boss, and to call him Dick there. It stuck in my mind - the general made the point that he was out of uniform just another one of the guys who got his boots and jeans dirty cleaning up horseshit just like everyone else while still upholding his command responsibility and authority. My view as a cadet was that I was a grub who was in the program to be trained so that one day I might evolve into a larval officer, and the best way to do so was to respect experienced troops and learn from them, even if they had chevrons on their shoulders instead of stripes on their shoulderboards - and they could teach a lot of real world lessons the O-3 and O-4 cadre classroom instructors had only recently learned themselves.
Years later as a college professor, I had a contract to work on MEDCAP issues for the COIN/Stability operations doctrine for Jim Mattis' JFCOM - the military members of our group were O-6s or higher (except for an AF O-4 physician on my project), and the background materials sent when I signed the contract stated that I was considered a simulated O-6/7 (not bad for a guy who washed out of AFROTC due to asthma found at his commissioning physical). I STILL treated the mostly Marine NCOs we has supporting us with the utmost respect and, in their areas of expertise, deference. A little courtesy and respect goes a long way when, for example, you need a batch of Powerpoint slides printed for distribution or access to a quiet meeting room - or an honest critique from a combat experienced NCO on the feasibility of a non-kinetic tactic at the grunt-eye level. Not coincidentally, EVERY decent general officer I worked with had the same attitude, including Isreali Aref Benny Gantz (then their defense attache, later the Chief of the IDF General Staff), Chaos himself, and a recently retired Marine LTG who had commanded JTF-Africa in the process of turning it into AfriCom.
Good leaders know they are not experts in everything and respect the abilities of even the junior enlisted - and get more out of their men because they show that respect. As a kid, my Dad, then an E-6 with a line number for E-7, was the President of the riding club at Barksdale. The stall across the hall from our mare's housed the gelding owned by the wife of the 8AF commander, LTG Dick Lawson. Dad and I were mucking out Starlett's stall one day and the general came in and started working on cleaning out theirs. Dad said "Good morning, sir" and was promptly corrected. General Lawson told him that he was a general in uniform, but at the stables Dad was the club President and the boss, and to call him Dick there. It stuck in my mind - the general made the point that he was out of uniform just another one of the guys who got his boots and jeans dirty cleaning up horseshit just like everyone else while still upholding his command responsibility and authority. My view as a cadet was that I was a grub who was in the program to be trained so that one day I might evolve into a larval officer, and the best way to do so was to respect experienced troops and learn from them, even if they had chevrons on their shoulders instead of stripes on their shoulderboards - and they could teach a lot of real world lessons the O-3 and O-4 cadre classroom instructors had only recently learned themselves.
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2LTs also outrank the Sergeant Major of the Army. Try correcting a SMA on wearing socks outside of AR 670-1 while going for a run at West Point and see what happens.
If a Cadet is giving your shit, show your stripes.
If a Cadet is giving your shit, show your stripes.
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COL Daniel Lindsey
A true SMA would say “Yes Sir Lieutenant, thank you for cslling to my attention my oversitr”. A LT doing his or her job correctly will always gain the respect of a true SMJ —- this is my opinion based on 36 years of service—starting as a Private and retiring as a Colonel— I believe the best operating team in the world has to be a Combat Arms Colonel/Lt. Colonel and her/his SNJ
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Not in the Marine Corps, a RECRUIT is a RECRUIT, regardless of who or where.
Any maggot thinking he could “pull rank”, found itself a smoldering pile of burnt sh|t for brains for even assuming that suicidal thought!
Any maggot thinking he could “pull rank”, found itself a smoldering pile of burnt sh|t for brains for even assuming that suicidal thought!
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COL Daniel Lindsey
A Cadet is not a Recruit— in actuality most of the time they feel a lots lower—- Can not lead unless you can follow—- Cadets have this beaten mentally into them— Academy Cadets live 4 years of it—- having to prove to TAC officers and NCOs they can lead to get that Gold Bar— which if they are smart they realize it is an license for OJT for a while
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MSgt Ross Baxter
MSgt Ross Baxter
Apparently Rallypoint didn’t agree with the rest of my reply to the Col, concerning 2nd LT’s
Apparently Rallypoint didn’t agree with the rest of my reply to the Col, concerning 2nd LT’s
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There’s all kinds of different cadets, and in my experience the only ones who ever decided to “go toe-to-toe with an NCO” for whatever reason were all prior service types who part of the Green to Gold program. The non-prior service cadets were usually just in awe of everything the NCOs had done in their careers, and of everything the NCOs taught them.
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Technically yes, but no. Enlisted personnel are supposed to treat cadets as future leaders, and with as much respect as they give you. If you have some rouge cadets that think they know everything, square them away, mentor them, and let them understand the roles of the NCOs. If you’re a cadet and going into a unit with that mentality, it’s a recipe for disaster.
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NO! As an NCO in the Coast Guard a cadet has not been commissithey hold a rank of E-2 or E-3k questions but never authoritatively.
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