Posted on Mar 9, 2015
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The recent case of Gen. Petraeus prompted me to think about this a little.

We frequently hear cases of important men who get taken down with sex scandals, financial scandals, ethics violations, etc. Yet, quite often, these people skate and get re-elected, re-appointed or whatever.

Why does society tolerate this, and what is it about leadership that makes men lose their way? (I specifically call out men, because the vast majority of such cases involve men in leadership.)
Posted in these groups: Values tree ValuesLeadership abstract 007 Leadership5ccd6724 Morals
76%
Absolutely!
2%
No Way
7%
They used to, before the Millennium
2%
Only if you're a chaplain
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Responses: 55
CSM Brigade Operations (S3) Sergeant Major
To answer your question about leadership and losing your way. I believe men think they become so powerful that they are untouchable, like a God complex. If the leader has poor values or morals it will be worse at every level as they rise through the ranks. I believe there are more good leaders than bad, we just hear more about the bad ones.

On Petraeus, I find it hard to believe that he has poor morals or values. I think it was more poor judgment on his part and if he talked about classified information definitely a poor decision. He was my battalion commander back in the day, one of the best field grade officers I ever had the privilege to work for.
CSM Brigade Operations (S3) Sergeant Major
CSM (Join to see)
10 y
CPT John Hermida
Sir - Thanks for having my back, thought I was the lone ranger there for a second. Like I originally said, leaders with no morals or values (toxic) tend to leave a path of destruction at every level. In GEN Petreaus' case there was no effect on good order and discipline, it was a personal issue. Again, not saying it was right but, to say the man has no morals or values is absurd.
SSG Scott Weaver
SSG Scott Weaver
10 y
Rehab power of an Article 15? That's a joke, right? Only if you're rehabbing them into becomming a civilian again. Article 15's are career enders and should be used wisely. Shit bag status is almost impossible to overcome once you earn it.

Back on point... Making a bad decision doesn't mean you have no morals.
1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
>1 y
SSG Scott Weaver, non-judicial proceedings were written into the UCMJ precisely to allow rehabilitation

Once the current leadership generation gets off its "We must be perfect" bend, maybe they will be useful for that again.

And about that s***-bag status, difficult is far from impossible. Been there, done that, and still have a t-shirt or two.
1LT William Clardy
1LT William Clardy
>1 y
CW4 Brian Haas, if he was one of *your* SP4s, would you even know (or care) if he was discreetly cheating on his wife?

When was the last time you pulled a bed check on your married subordinates?
SGT 94 E Radio Comsec Repairer
Yes, morals and values matter. They're just as important as they always were.

I blame mass media for making it seem as though today's leaders have lower morals than leaders of decades past. If the internet, email, camera phones, and closed circuit television cameras had been prevalent in the 60s, maybe we would've captured more scandals perpetrated by people like President Kennedy and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Great leaders are just as human as the common man, and are bound to make the same mistakes.
1px xxx
Suspended Profile
10 y
SGT (Join to see) You are correct - after all, JFK and MM...
1SG Civil Affairs Specialist
Moral and ethical issues matter because they speak to CHARACTER.
It is my unshakable belief that if you would lie and cheet on your spouse, you would have little compunction to do so to your peers, subordinates or leaders. Such men (and women) are devoid of honor and integrity, and have no business leading my Soldiers...or me.

I am a leader who wants to look into the eyes of a Soldiers mother or spouse or children and earn their respect because they can judge me worthy to lead their loved one in a job that might just require the ultimate sacrifice.
I want them to know that I would happily take a bullet meant for any of my Soldiers, rather than have to face those Family members and explain why it was that I could be standing there, and their Soldier could not.

People who look the other way when something wrong happens, who lie to look like something they are not, who work for their own profit or aggrandizement or gratification or promotion are working towards goals that do not further my unit, and often damages it.

I think society "tolerates" these behaviors not because they have become "OK", but rather because we have become a society that fears shame. That if we face down and call out bad behavior, that we fear our own sins coming to light and facing our own consequences. I think that by minimizing that shame, we only make it that much easier to choose to do the wrong thing when faced with that dilemma.

I will never call myself perfect, and I have not always done the right thing, but I strive to live my values and morals every day, and find forgivness and redeption on the days I fall short.
CSM Brigade Operations (S3) Sergeant Major
CSM (Join to see)
10 y
1SG (Join to see)
I understand your point and I agree to an extent but, to say that a Soldier who cheats on their spouse is devoid of honor and integrity is a bit harsh. Yes it is against the UCMJ and the Bible but that's pretty much the only place it is illegal. Now, if it affects good order and discipline of the unit i.e. it's happening within the unit, then that's an issue.

Do you think that maybe somewhere during your career you had a really good leader that you looked up to and respected that was divorced and possibly remarried? Do you think that possibly that leader may have cheated prior to the divorce being final? You would have no idea about their personal life, unless it was publicized.

I am not saying that it is right by any means and I respect your beliefs but, I have a hard time believing that someone is devoid of morals and values if they make a poor decision. Now, if they are making multiple poor decisions and it is affecting good order and discipline then that's an issue.
1SG Civil Affairs Specialist
1SG (Join to see)
10 y
I stand by my comments CSM (Join to see).
I said nothing about someone who had divorced and remarried. I do take issue with someone who couldn't wait until things were final to move on.
Call me old-fashioned, but I think one's personal conduct matters, and it is absolutely an indicator of what kind of leader they are.

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