Posted on Jan 15, 2016
Do Pathfinder wings have to be flush with the pocket on ASUs?
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I work as a Technician in the NG. I manage the DA photo lab in the J6 Visual Information office. Today while in the lab talking to the photographer an E-7 walked in for a photo. I have spent many hours in the photo lab and consider myself a DA Pam 670-1 expert. When I told this E-7 his Pathfinder wings were not flush below his pocket he said that "Active Pathfinders cant/tilt their wings". I searched for hours on traditions and looked in the DA Pam. His photo has already been uploaded but I'm asking for my sanity because I've been searching for hours now.
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 59
This is wrong. The Pathfinder badge, originally, was sewn on the lower forearm portion of the service coat/jacket/top during World War II. The badges design and placement created the canted appearance, and as the development of new uniforms progressed, the Torch was instinctually and traditionally canted.
After the modern more modern uniform policies took hold, the badge's flame top was portrayed level with the wing tip, and through the illustration, the "modern" positioning and placement became standard practice.
Now, with that being said, I was in the 101st Pathfinder Company at Campbell from 2010-2015. Our historic practice was to cant the Torch to signify you were actually in a Pathfinder Company, and not just Pathfinder qualified.
We treated it in the same way as Regiment treats their Scroll. There's the tab, which means you're Ranger qualified, and then there's the scroll which means you're actually in a Ranger Regiment.
After the modern more modern uniform policies took hold, the badge's flame top was portrayed level with the wing tip, and through the illustration, the "modern" positioning and placement became standard practice.
Now, with that being said, I was in the 101st Pathfinder Company at Campbell from 2010-2015. Our historic practice was to cant the Torch to signify you were actually in a Pathfinder Company, and not just Pathfinder qualified.
We treated it in the same way as Regiment treats their Scroll. There's the tab, which means you're Ranger qualified, and then there's the scroll which means you're actually in a Ranger Regiment.
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Sounds like a Unit thing and it's fine for unit functions "Balls, Dining In, etc..." but for a DA Photo, going to a board outside of your unit, or school house you should have them strait. I'm a CAV guy and wearing my Stetson and Spurs is cool for unit events or if I'm in my units footprint. But I wouldn't wear my Stetson in my DA photo.....
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DA PAM 670–1 dated 1 July 2015, page 215, Figure 22-46. The "center line" of the torch is plumb to the top of the pocket.
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I always wore mine at a slight angle. As an Army Reservist I served nearly four years in a Pathfinder platoon, so we pretty much had no issues in what we wore.
When I enlisted on Active Duty I had to come in as a PFC. Walking around Fort Bragg in '86 - a PFC with Jump Wings and the coveted Torch - I tended to get stopped by senior NCOs who wanted to know just how the hell a PFC got to Pathfinder school. If I thought the NCO had a sense of humor I'd reply that I thought it looked damned cool in the Clothing Sales store!
That was back when the Pathfinder course was at Ft Benning, and the only Soldiers who could attend needed a reason to be in the course. Had to be Jump qualified, on Jump status, in a combat MOS.
Unlike today where pretty much anybody can go through ... regardless of MOS, gender, unit of assignment. For crying out loud, attendees don't even have to be Airborne qualified. Sad.
When I enlisted on Active Duty I had to come in as a PFC. Walking around Fort Bragg in '86 - a PFC with Jump Wings and the coveted Torch - I tended to get stopped by senior NCOs who wanted to know just how the hell a PFC got to Pathfinder school. If I thought the NCO had a sense of humor I'd reply that I thought it looked damned cool in the Clothing Sales store!
That was back when the Pathfinder course was at Ft Benning, and the only Soldiers who could attend needed a reason to be in the course. Had to be Jump qualified, on Jump status, in a combat MOS.
Unlike today where pretty much anybody can go through ... regardless of MOS, gender, unit of assignment. For crying out loud, attendees don't even have to be Airborne qualified. Sad.
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When I got pinned the cadre put a tilt on it. I think its more along the lines of how soldiers in airborne units wear their berets all slanted. It's an attitude or persona they want to express. No it's not in the regs. No don't do it for a DA photo if you intend on getting promoted.
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Several respondents have stated that the reg doesn't specify to tilt or not, but I call shenanigans. There is a picture of the badge in DA PAM 670-1 which shows the torch upright, so the correct COA is to wear the badge on the uniform as it is pictured in the DA PAM.
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Tilt isn't authorized. Fortunately people who pass bum scoop tend to self select for getting passed over..
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The pictures in DA PAM 670-1 show it to be straight up and down, not canted. There could be some unit variance based on tradition, official or not, but if so you wouldn't wear it that way on your DA photo. Just like you won't wear your Stetson or spurs if your cav.
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