Do you believe counseling soldiers has better results than making them do PT?

People respond to few things more than they respond to pain. Besides that, I've found that there are 2 things you can take in order to get the attention of soldiers. Their time and their money. Given the choices between taking my time or money or smoking me out in the pit, I'll take the pit every time. As long as the smoke session isn't harmful it can be the best motivator. It hurts, it's easy to remember, and there's no long-lasting negative effect on the career of the soldier in question.

I think it depends on your organization, climate, and level of professionalism. If you In-Process a Soldier correctly, introduce them to the Chain of Command, provide them with the units History, regulations, Training guidance, expectations, ect, then I think counselings work as a written path to chart goals. // As for a drastic drop in discipline. That is an organizational issue. Standards are just that- standards. If a Soldier fails to meet the Standard then they are re-trained. The Non Commissioned Officer Corps has this task. The issue here is too many Soldiers are allowed to be E-5 and they never become Non Commissioned Officers of the Profession of Arms. They are merely wearing the chevrons without accepting the responsibility and accountability that comes with the promotion. So, Introduce all new members a specific way to the organization. Get them acclimated to the culture. Give them the expectations of the unit and leaders. Put it all in writing. Have the Soldier write out their goals on a timeline chart and then have them sign it. Its a contract. Now go train and repeat.

I'm old school. Getting smoked taught me that the Army wasn't messing around and that it's important to pay attention to detail. Getting smoked embedded the lesson in my head. If they get rid of smoking, they can pretty much forget really teaching these soldiers discipline. I say bring back smoking or our Army will become weaker and weaker.

First place you have to have soldier that gives a shit and sometimes that is hard to find. When I was a 19yo E3, I had an NCO that ripped my shit to pieces, had a grown man (if you will at 19) crying. I hated him but I gave a shit and am thankful he 1) cared enough 2) had the balls to tell me how it was and 3) we were not in today's climate where I could run to someone for him hurting my feelings.

I'm a firm believer that PT is counseling. Somewhere along the line people in the Army started to believe that counseling is a piece of paper and not a conversation. That piece of paper is just a record of a conversation.
Most Soldiers don't give a crap about your shiny piece of paper because it has no immediate effect on their lives.

Particularly for good order & discipline, I always felt that corrective training was better in most situations, unless the problem is substantial or there is a need to build a paper trial in order to lay the groundwork for chaptering someone out.

Smoking a Joe is an immediate response to what is generally a minor issue in need of correction on both an individual level or on a group level. I'm not much of a fan of mass punishment, but that too has its place; what's the alternative, mass counselings? "Platoon, you missed the time hack. Drop and gimme a pen!"

In and of itself, while a well crafted counseling may set forth expectations ("well crafted" being the key), they neither punish wrongdoing nor reinforce correct actions all that much and once a counseling is finally done, this form of punishment/correction/etc is so far removed from the incident in question as to lessen the impact even further. Besides, this requires the counselor and the soldier(s) to take even more time away from their normal duty day than all but the most extreme smoke sessions. I guarantee I learned more from being smoked than I ever did being counseled.

Actually, I never got a negative counseling now that I think of it, but if I had...

Yes, counselings do have their place; and yes, this is a profession. The big difference is that this is a profession of arms, it is not like any civilian profession, and should not be treated as such-at least not entirely. There are some methods of operating in this singular profession, tested tried and true over a millennia that should be allowed to remain, and not cast aside to appease new sensibilities.

Some Soldiers will not care about a negative counseling statement if there is a weak or missing plan of action to correct the deficiency or behavior. A great tool for the Soldiers that have issues but can still be molded is a BAR to Continued Service. With this, your counseling is now tied to an end state of the Soldier having 6 months to correct the behavior, or be discharged. The reasons a commander can BAR a Soldier are pretty accommodating to meet most deficiencies that your underperforming Soldiers will have. Separation under a failure to overcome a BAR will also suspend separation pay that they may be entitled to. I think that would definitely get their attention.

I use what I was taught which is PT now I do incorporate verbal counseling because that helps and I think you need to let them know why they are doing PT and how to fix there short comings. As for just using a DA 4856 to mold and correct soldiers does not work and because of that mentality the discipline amongst the new junior enlisted has dropped .

you are dead right on. cultivating recruits and privates instead of building Soldiers is second to breaking them and riding them and pushing them out. i dont propose babying anyone. but you guys are doing it wrong. we need hard well disciplined Drill Sergeants that are dedicated AND supported from above to that end. these hard working professionals need to be unleashed to do their work. shrug off the liberal damage to our beloved military. a 98 percent soldier is a problem, but kicking them out is wrong. build them up, bring them up, with your leadership and discipline and the help of all your NCO's and Jr Officers.

I was a hard soldier to mold but they did good with me with smoking sessions if PT. It changed my attitude and made me who I am today. Now days soldiers have no drive and become instant losers after they get out. It's sad I bought my first house when I got out I was 22!! I would have never done that going to college at some liberal shithole state.