Posted on Sep 8, 2017
Do you believe counseling soldiers has better results than making them do PT?
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I've noticed that soldiers are always different especially when taking punishment. But with the army going away from "smoke sessions" I've noticed a drastic drop in discipline in soldiers. The new generation does not care about counseling statements in my opinion, and the leadership is so focused on kicking them out instead of molding them into better people and better soldiers. Thoughts???
Leadership
Leadership Development
Counseling
Physical Training
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 175
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It's true. I never cared about a counseling and I don't know anyone who does. Good old fashioned PT gets the point across. If you don't make doing wrong suck, there's nothing to enforce doing right.
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Since I was in the Army when the only counseling you received was from the Chaplain my response will be a bit old school,we only had the pt option ,seemed to work pretty well in my case anyway,took a teenaged juvenile delinquent and got him to survive Vietnam ,but like I say that was then how it works with today's Service members is probably better answered by the younger generation.
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I've had two problems with the shift towards counseling as the primary means of correcting soldiers behavior. One is that 18 and 19 year olds don't listen. They get the counseling and shrug their shoulders then go back to what they did before. The other problem is that paperwork isn't always appropriate. In many situations soldiers have to operate in informal situations. Is it better to smoke a soldier for a momentary breach in military bearing or write them up and give them a black mark on their counseling packets? I think that obviously it should be up to the discretion of the leader, but that discretion has been taken from the NCO. This leads to a drop in discipline, and moral.
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I had good experience with both! Some soldiers responded extremely well to the paperwork, and others extremely well to the PT. There are some cases, where I gave them an option, and when the PT failed to work, the paper trail started! Either way, your approach is going to be based on what type of leader you are!
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SGT Andrew Dejesus
Ok so whats your opinion on the army as a whole trying to transition out of pt entirely.?
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I'm a newer soldier myself. Only 3 years in. I could care less about the counseling statements because it's just on a piece of paper. That's not the right way to learn from your mistake because there is no lesson. As a newer soldier I'd love to bring back smoke sessions. There's almost no negative side to it besides hearing people complain about it afterwards. It keeps up your pt and your discipline.
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What has counseling ever done for a warrior? Just ask yourself, “if an enemy combatant charges at me with the intent to kill me, would my training (ie. through my counselings have made me a better soldier, a more disciplined soldier, to be able to defend myself againya his attack?). In other words it is the physical things we do to our body to discipline it, be it PT, repetitive labor, combat training with weapons and hand to hand combat, that will make me a warrior. Give cpunawlings if you must, but do not let it take the place of muscle memory.
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Depends on the Soldier.
I would tend to do something paper-free before going to paper, but that is me.
Once I'm into paper, that Soldier had best in-fu-- himself because the next step will involve rank/pay.
And for the record, it is a myth that smoke sessions are somehow illegal now. What is not acceptable is hazing. Getting joe up at o-dark to conduct physical training where an opportunity presents itself to mentor the Soldier in question and suggest ways to avoid said early morning smoke show... now that is getting results without administrative punishment.
Be creative, but don't break the rules. Your senior NCOs can be an excellent resource for ideas.
I would tend to do something paper-free before going to paper, but that is me.
Once I'm into paper, that Soldier had best in-fu-- himself because the next step will involve rank/pay.
And for the record, it is a myth that smoke sessions are somehow illegal now. What is not acceptable is hazing. Getting joe up at o-dark to conduct physical training where an opportunity presents itself to mentor the Soldier in question and suggest ways to avoid said early morning smoke show... now that is getting results without administrative punishment.
Be creative, but don't break the rules. Your senior NCOs can be an excellent resource for ideas.
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SGT Andrew Dejesus
I like the way you think, there has been a lot of debate about smoking because there are individuals like your self that say you can as long as it's not hazing or anything Ridiculous, but then there's others that say you cannot at all. For example my soldiers forgot their etool when we were about to go out to the field and I got my ass chewed for it. So I made them do push ups because I knew it was on the packing list and I made sure they had one too. They had the weekend to go over everything and I told them MAKE SURE YOU HAVE EVERYTHING. Then I got my ass chewed again because I made them do push ups. The nco said I can't punish them because it's not their fault they forgot. He said I should have made sure they had it which I do agree in some aspects but I do not think a soldier should be babied on the essentials of what you should have.
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1SG (Join to see)
SGT Andrew Dejesus - "It is not their fault they forgot".
Sometimes, albeit rarely, that can be true.
I have a simple litmus test:
If there are several Soldiers that forgot, then the issue is on me. Clearly, I didn't communicate effectively*.
(*Unless it is all in one squad or platoon... then I know where my weak link is)
However, if one or two Soldiers screw it up, it is on them, because everyone else figured it out.
That will earn you some quality time with me.
Sometimes, albeit rarely, that can be true.
I have a simple litmus test:
If there are several Soldiers that forgot, then the issue is on me. Clearly, I didn't communicate effectively*.
(*Unless it is all in one squad or platoon... then I know where my weak link is)
However, if one or two Soldiers screw it up, it is on them, because everyone else figured it out.
That will earn you some quality time with me.
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No it sets the opportunity for the councilor to start giving solution, plans. If the troop isn't working, some you just can't.
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SGT Andrew Dejesus
I do agree with, however would you agree that leaders may try and take the easy way out and just try and rid them of their problems with "problem" soldiers. I personally believe every soldier has a certain potential they can harness but need a certain approach such as consistency and patience.
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I have used the smoke session to help improve the soldiers APFT score as well as the overall discipline. The trick is to ensure that the smoke session is not going to be detrimental to the health of the soldier. The other part is to make sure that you include what will take place in the counseling session, that way there is no argument as to the reason for the smoke session. Outline other measures to take, such as: taking their time away, money, and any right to attend any training or coveted school. Provide other forms of punishment that focus on attention to detail and provide a reason for it.
But yes, i agree that overall discipline is a major concern within the US Army these days.
But yes, i agree that overall discipline is a major concern within the US Army these days.
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this question gets asked quite frequently. My two cents = Smoke sessions for minor infractions is a useful tool that should never have gone away, I learned a lot of lessons through smoke sessions that still stay with me today. Case in point, My first duty station with 1-9 Cav at FT Hood back in 97. I flicked a cigarette butt into the street in front of my Battalion HQ, My CSM saw this, ordered me to get into full "Battle Rattle" and had me low crawl picking up cig butts around his BN area for the entire day. to this day, I field strip my butts and put them in my pocket. A counseling statement probably would not have embedded that lesson nearly as well.
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SSG Robert Perrotto
SGT Andrew Dejesus - He was "old school", last of the Vietnam warhorses, and actually a great NCO that shared a lot of knowledge and actually talked to his junior enlisted. I actually told him to "fuck off" one time in the motor pool. I was waist deep, head first into my Bradleys engine compartment cleaning up spilled oil and he walked up behind me and starting talking, without looking I told him to "fuck off, I am too busy cleaning this mess" Thought he was my gunner screwing around with me. Later on, at closeout formation, he comes up to me and hands me a "Headhunter" coin, along with a warning to never tell him to fuck off again. I got the coin for putting the job ahead of some random person trying to shoot the breeze.
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