Posted on Apr 17, 2018
COL Deputy G2
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I have seen where many veterans have been making degrading remarks about the President of the United States. However, I also have seen threads where actively serving members, verified by RP, are making disparaging remarks.
Is this thought of as a safe space where military justice does not matter?
Is this thought of as a place where military members think they can exercise their first amendment rights?
Edited >1 y ago
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MSgt Paul Sanchez (Ret)
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First time responding to a RP question. Plz forgive if this was already posted 28 times below.

First, read this:

ARTICLE 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
10. Punitive Articles
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice President, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, Commonwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Article 134. General article:
Though not specifically mentioned in this chapter, all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces, and crimes and offenses not capital, of which persons subject to this chapter may be guilty, shall be taken cognizance of by a general, special, or summary court-martial, according to the nature and degree of the offense, and shall be punished at the discretion of that court.

Second, Article 88 seems pretty clear, BUT ONLY for COMMISSIONED officers. What about Enlisted? Article 134 seems clear to me, "all disorders and neglects to the prejudice of good order and discipline in the armed forces, all conduct of a nature to bring discredit upon the armed forces,". Enlisted using contemptuous, disparaging, demeaning, etc... words against the President, or even the officers and NCO's appointed above them, seems to be against "the prejudice of good order and discipline".

Third, Note that as a military member of any rank, you cannot attend a political event in uniform, PERIOD. You DO have the freedom to attend in civvies, but not in uniform.

Fourth, when you VOLUNTARILY signed up, you made yourself subject to rules and laws that do not apply to our civilian population. When you add the sum of the UCMJ together, there's lots of stuff that you can't do anymore. And it's all based on the idea that on the battlefield, there's no time for voting. Your leaders say jump, and you ask how high? Or people die. That simple idea is the bedrock for everything in the military.

Now with all of that said, I do NOT believe that a Veteran of any rank falls under any of these articles. So Veterans, fire away! But while on Active duty, nope.

BUT WAIT, what does "contemptuous" mean? Merriam-Websters defines it as, "Definition of contemptuous: manifesting, feeling, or expressing deep hatred or disapproval : feeling or showing contempt." So can a officer or enlisted person write a post disagreeing with a policy, WITHOUT (basically) cussing out the Prez? Well it's a thin line, but I'd argue YES THEY CAN. The thin line comes in when your on duty and you disagree with the order that your CO just gave the unit. Publicly disagreeing with that order is VERY dangerous, but if you politely (and privately) disagree, but then fully comply, well it depends on the service and officer.

So what about the President? Posting an opinion, with respect but disagreement, but still obeying "...the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice." seems within limits. But I am not a lawyer, I just play one on FB...

But that's the enlisted version, what about officers? Their oath doesn't say a word about orders. That's where Article 88 comes in. Hmmm...

Bottom-line to me. For officers, if you keep it within the lines, maybe... For enlisted, again if you keep it within the lines, probably. Either way, an aggressive CO could try to take it to a court, but a good defense atty could argue them out of it. The key is the insult. Don't make it personal, make your point on the facts, offer your opinion, but stay respectful, and you should be ok.

Vets, not on AD, Guard, or Reserve duty, should be immune from all of the above, unless you add threats to the post. Then you might expect a visit from the Secret Service. And that applies to everyone.

One last opinion, if arguments on social media, from all sides, stuck to this principle, stay with the facts, offer your opinion, don't insult the opposing view, we'd get so much accomplished. In my opinion, the 1st person to go negative has lost. If that's all you've got, you're done. But that's just me...

Free fire zone engaged in 3,2,1.... -- Chez, out!
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SPC Mike Davis
SPC Mike Davis
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Great comment.....except, enlisted may not disagree politely or any other way.
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SGT Jonathan Smith
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Are we talking privately, (i.e.: Personal Facebook, Instagram, RP, etc.) Or to a media outlet "on the record"?
Active duty or veteran, there is no way that we can disapprove of ANY hindrance of the 1st Amendment, period.
I could always tell my battle buddies about how much of an a-hole the 1st SGT, Captain, or Major is. If I have that right, then I obviously have the right to speak openly about my political beliefs. As a rule in my unit, we agreed to keep those conversations, along with religion, out in an open forum.
We as soldiers swore an oath to FIRST protect the Constitution. Second, to our leadership. That is why a soldier has the right to refuse an unlawful order.
Free speech is free speech.
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SPC Mike Davis
SPC Mike Davis
>1 y
Great comment.....I have noticed. Most comments by officers and Sr. Enlisted all sound like mind numb robots.
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LTC Philip Sharp
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What 1st Ammendment right applies here? Courts have consistently held that disparaging comments are an offense under UCMJ. This isn't a new issue, this also occurred in the last administration.
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SGT Bryan O'Reilly
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No, I don't believe it's appropriate for active duty. it undermines the COC. Thai said, we are all governed by the constitution and are duty bound to point out violations when we see them regardless of politics.
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Sgt Mervyn Russell
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When you join the military you lose your political rights except to vote. The military is not a democracy, The President is the Supreme commander of the military, he is your boss, even in the work place in civilian life you do not say bad things about you boss and expect to keep your job. The President is The President Of the United States of America and should be treated with respect. Never in American history had any President been treated so unfairly as Donald Trump. I did not vote for Trump nor did I vote for Obama but anyone that's voted into the office of the President should be treated as the leader of the United States. No one is in a place of power unless God has allowed it.
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It's a shame when they cross that line. It feels like there's a gulf between contemptuous words and being critical of specific policy. It annoys me no matter who is President.

"Trump is literally Hitler" vs. "You know, I really have problems with these tariffs."
PO1 Ken Deschler
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No it is not
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Sgt James De Napoli
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Negative, whatever else the man may be, he is still the commander in chief... There's no such thing as a "safe space" as an active duty service member you are under oath 24/7.. Is this a legit topic??
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SGT Scott Moreland
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With all due respect, I don't care about even trying to answer these questions. What are you doing as a leader to proactively counter the effects of media on your service members so they don't say or do something uninformed or ill-advised?
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Brad Miller
Brad Miller
>1 y
Short of physically cutting them off (don't see HOW that could be done) -- teach them the right thing, and then if they step on their (ahem) it's on their own head? (so to speak).
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Cpl Jim Zimmerman
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No.
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