Posted on May 4, 2016
Do you believe that these West Point first classman are violating the UCMJ by making a political statement while in uniform?
94K
1.65K
842
42
42
0
DOD directive 1344.10 states:
-A member of the Armed Forces on active duty may:
4.1.1.3. Join a partisan or nonpartisan political club and attend its meetings when NOT in uniform, subject to the restrictions of subparagraph 4.1.2.4. (See DoD Instruction 1334.1 (Reference (c).)
From the article "Racism Within West Point"
http://www.inthearenafitness.com/index.php/racism-within-west-point
-A member of the Armed Forces on active duty may:
4.1.1.3. Join a partisan or nonpartisan political club and attend its meetings when NOT in uniform, subject to the restrictions of subparagraph 4.1.2.4. (See DoD Instruction 1334.1 (Reference (c).)
From the article "Racism Within West Point"
http://www.inthearenafitness.com/index.php/racism-within-west-point
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 236
1. So exactly what statement are they making?
2. According to the article they are making "behind closed doors statements". What statements are they making? Is it counter productive to good order and discipline?
3. And the big question is. Once they graduate/commission, and move out to units then what? Will there still be behind closed doors statements? And will it effect their duties and responsibilities as Commissioned Officers?
My understanding is that we (currently serving) Military are "supposed" to be as politically neutral while representing our respective branches, and the uniform that we wear. Am I mistaken?
2. According to the article they are making "behind closed doors statements". What statements are they making? Is it counter productive to good order and discipline?
3. And the big question is. Once they graduate/commission, and move out to units then what? Will there still be behind closed doors statements? And will it effect their duties and responsibilities as Commissioned Officers?
My understanding is that we (currently serving) Military are "supposed" to be as politically neutral while representing our respective branches, and the uniform that we wear. Am I mistaken?
(5)
(0)
Sgt Edward Padget
To their statement: They as a group of black women are stating they have persevered, "beat the odds" and are graduating from West Point. It's only black women in the photo because their plight and journey was obviously inclusive to only black women. White women who attend West Point have their own journey as well, but I'm not sure how they express their accomplishment, same for black men and all other minorities.
No idea on the behind closed door statement other than it's construed as a "Black Power" statement. Maybe they mean to say their own personal wherewithal their internal black power and fortitude pushed them through the experience?
After they graduate hopefully they will take their experiences and move on to become great officers in the military. I'm sure they'll always have a soft spot for those who are trying to better themselves and persevering.
No idea on the behind closed door statement other than it's construed as a "Black Power" statement. Maybe they mean to say their own personal wherewithal their internal black power and fortitude pushed them through the experience?
After they graduate hopefully they will take their experiences and move on to become great officers in the military. I'm sure they'll always have a soft spot for those who are trying to better themselves and persevering.
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
CPT Pedro Meza
Sgt Edward Padget - Ishtar (English pronunciation /ˈɪʃtɑːr/; Transliteration: DIŠTAR; Akkadian:
(0)
(0)
I was called a racist once. Then I cleared it up. I do NOT hate an entire race. There are all kinds of PEOPLE I hate. Many different Races. I also hate broccoli, Most greens, besides mustard. So that makes me Prejudice. But as far a a racist, nope, I hate you, you you, you and especially you! I hate everyone equally!
(5)
(0)
MSgt Daniel Harrison
I totally agree with you Sgt Sergent. There are Black people I don't like as well as White, Asian, Mexicans, or whoever. And there are a lot of people of all races I love.
(2)
(0)
That is interesting that my classmate Brenda Sue Fulton has waded into the fray about this picture SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL She was speaking "an alum" not in any leadership capacity.
As far as a claim that this is an old corps photo, the only things old corps about it is the location in front of one of the older buildings and the crossed sabers which are not included in this version of the picture.
The raised fists were something associated with the black power movement of the 1960s and then became more radicalized when the Black panthers adopted that pose. The full dress gray uniform was modified by 1976 when I entered the US Military Academy as part of the class of 1980 which was the first to include women - so uniforms had to be modified.
There has been a lot of discussion about this picture among my classmates with some jokingly indicating it honors Michael Jackson.
USMA cadets like others in military uniform are prohibited from making political statements in the uniform of the US military or attending political events in uniform unless on official duty such as MPs, SPs, etc. Prohibited statements include what we do while in uniform. The Nazi salute is an example of something which brings discredit upon the military if somebody performs it in public.
As far as a claim that this is an old corps photo, the only things old corps about it is the location in front of one of the older buildings and the crossed sabers which are not included in this version of the picture.
The raised fists were something associated with the black power movement of the 1960s and then became more radicalized when the Black panthers adopted that pose. The full dress gray uniform was modified by 1976 when I entered the US Military Academy as part of the class of 1980 which was the first to include women - so uniforms had to be modified.
There has been a lot of discussion about this picture among my classmates with some jokingly indicating it honors Michael Jackson.
USMA cadets like others in military uniform are prohibited from making political statements in the uniform of the US military or attending political events in uniform unless on official duty such as MPs, SPs, etc. Prohibited statements include what we do while in uniform. The Nazi salute is an example of something which brings discredit upon the military if somebody performs it in public.
(4)
(0)
SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL
LTC Stephen F. thanks for the broad perspective, in hindsight of the history. Well said and profoundly stated. Thanks for the personal touch and first point of view from the USMA as a Cadet.
(2)
(0)
I've read the other article from facebook. Indeed well written and with some possibly valid points. I say possibly as I have not had the honor of attending the USMA at West Point or any other service school.
In the end it is only an attempt to justify the actions of others. I don't give a damn what color you are, what God you worship, who you sleep with, how you spend your money or anything else. The only thing(s) that matter are that you adhere to the established honor code as that represents your integrity. Without that, anything else is meaningless. You must perform to your utmost best. I don't care you are not a straight A student (I know I wasn't). As long as you gave it your all is what I look for in a cadet (Leader).
Your job as the new wave of officers is to learn your job, perform your job, be a leader. You are not there to voice your opposition to what you think is wrong (You can fight that through channels like everyone else). As one of America's next generation of leaders, you need to lead, not make excuses for someone else. There is no room for that. Like the old adage, Lead, Follow or get the hell out of the way.
If you wish to tackle anything you perceive as an injustice, do so on your own time and stop detracting from the reason you were allowed the opportunity to attend one of the most prestigious establishments of higher education and military leadership.
You can put lipstick on a pig but it doesn't change the fact it's still a pig. Suck it up cupcake, you can do this.
In the end it is only an attempt to justify the actions of others. I don't give a damn what color you are, what God you worship, who you sleep with, how you spend your money or anything else. The only thing(s) that matter are that you adhere to the established honor code as that represents your integrity. Without that, anything else is meaningless. You must perform to your utmost best. I don't care you are not a straight A student (I know I wasn't). As long as you gave it your all is what I look for in a cadet (Leader).
Your job as the new wave of officers is to learn your job, perform your job, be a leader. You are not there to voice your opposition to what you think is wrong (You can fight that through channels like everyone else). As one of America's next generation of leaders, you need to lead, not make excuses for someone else. There is no room for that. Like the old adage, Lead, Follow or get the hell out of the way.
If you wish to tackle anything you perceive as an injustice, do so on your own time and stop detracting from the reason you were allowed the opportunity to attend one of the most prestigious establishments of higher education and military leadership.
You can put lipstick on a pig but it doesn't change the fact it's still a pig. Suck it up cupcake, you can do this.
(4)
(0)
Violation of UCMJ? Don't know about that.
BUT, if it can be proven that it was a planned photo to show support to BLM, or and other political movement/figure, they would be violation of the "Hatch Act."
BUT, if it can be proven that it was a planned photo to show support to BLM, or and other political movement/figure, they would be violation of the "Hatch Act."
(4)
(0)
I see both sides of the issue. A lot have said this is black female unity. Yeah... I get that. But that defeats the purpose of being at West Point, one of the most prestigious clubs in the United States. You don't need unity there. You need to be part of a team. You've already accomplished something few others have, and many would kill for. Why set yourself apart? Same goes for the military as a whole. So personally, I find this unity argument silly.
The other side is the connection to Black Panthers. They are young and might not even be aware of the militant organization. They might associate that gesture with BLM. I am not up to speed whether they are using that as their gesture or not. Can't comment there.
The question here is of perception. What would the perception be if this were the Latino population at West Point throwing out a West Side symbol.
I think symbolism, gestures, whatever you want to call it, have no place at West Point, nor a need. Same goes for the Army as a whole. You are already part of a small family and group of like-minded individuals. The largest Fraternity in the country.
I suppose they were exactly what they are. Kids being kids. They will grow up soon, and fast.
The other side is the connection to Black Panthers. They are young and might not even be aware of the militant organization. They might associate that gesture with BLM. I am not up to speed whether they are using that as their gesture or not. Can't comment there.
The question here is of perception. What would the perception be if this were the Latino population at West Point throwing out a West Side symbol.
I think symbolism, gestures, whatever you want to call it, have no place at West Point, nor a need. Same goes for the Army as a whole. You are already part of a small family and group of like-minded individuals. The largest Fraternity in the country.
I suppose they were exactly what they are. Kids being kids. They will grow up soon, and fast.
(4)
(0)
(3)
(0)
LTC (Join to see)
SPC Greg K. - After re-reading... I will have to agree with you. Having not gone to West point, I read first classman and assumed they were first year. That would have made them around 18, and kids in my book. However, they are fourth years. This means they are all over 21 and should indeed have known better.
(2)
(0)
SPC Greg K.
Cpt. Mathews, even if they were 18 they are adults. In my opinion, "Kids" today need to start being held accountable for their actions as adults. Age 18 is the law. Now, yes, we all do "stupid" things growing up and I did a lot of stupid things while I was in college. I paid my way through school...(We Are...Penn State) However, it is no excuse to violate, ignore and disobey laws and policies, especially, when it comes to such a prestigious institution like West Point, which is the pinnacle of leadership for our Military. These grown "Women" NEED to be held at a higher standard then regular "kids" and an investigation needs to be done. If found that they indeed violated ANY law or policy (federal, state, local or institutional) then they need to held accountable....zero tolerance for racist behavior. If they are not held accountable then that opens the gates. What if a dozen white females were up there claiming "white power"? Sorry, for the rant....I hope fairness is accomplished here, I hate to see our Military men and women tarnished because of the actions of a few.
(3)
(0)
LTC Stephen Conway
SPC Greg K. - True.. if women said they were for the preservation of the Confederate Wives or kids of America it would not fly at West Point.
(0)
(0)
There's a lot of focus on the UCMJ here. When I was in Beast Barracks back in the day, there were many rules which go far beyond the UCMJ. The one that strikes me is anything that brings the Cadet Corps into disrepute. They take that very seriously. That would be in the eye of the beholder. So I don't know how it spins now vs. Class of '75 in which a number of one way air fares would be issued. The '68 Olympics would be very fresh in their minds. Just missing the gloves. And in honor of CPT Jack Durish I'll add they must be using that new deodorant "Pit Stop".
(4)
(0)
CSM Charles Hayden
CAPT Kevin B. Thank you for recalling those 1968 Olympic images. The photo in question is reminiscent of the pose that was so offensive to me!
(1)
(0)
Sir if they are indeed facing some kind of racism in West Point and I don't discount the possibility, then bringing attention to it is courageous. We are talking about it exactly because they chose to be pictured wearing the West Point uniforms.
(4)
(0)
2LT (Join to see)
CPT Ahmed Faried -
1) USMA must have a population that is statistically identical to the larger US population. For instance there were concentrated efforts to increase female candidates while I was there - its up to 25 ish% now I think. They earned their rings, plenty of others would have taken them. Agreed. I also was in the same platoon as one of the girls and know she is awesome. I think you can tell which way I lead on a national policy of affirmative action. That argument in the case of USMA is not sound, same with other places. Nothing is universally applicable.
2)That was a good article. It is hard to tell if someone is just crying racism today or if it actually occurred. That sounds like she went through some stuff. Wish I could have been there to stop that. I would not stand for some of those experiences she had, neither would my classmates. Woah.
Thanks for the post, best one for my thinking so far!
1) USMA must have a population that is statistically identical to the larger US population. For instance there were concentrated efforts to increase female candidates while I was there - its up to 25 ish% now I think. They earned their rings, plenty of others would have taken them. Agreed. I also was in the same platoon as one of the girls and know she is awesome. I think you can tell which way I lead on a national policy of affirmative action. That argument in the case of USMA is not sound, same with other places. Nothing is universally applicable.
2)That was a good article. It is hard to tell if someone is just crying racism today or if it actually occurred. That sounds like she went through some stuff. Wish I could have been there to stop that. I would not stand for some of those experiences she had, neither would my classmates. Woah.
Thanks for the post, best one for my thinking so far!
(1)
(0)
COL (Join to see)
CPT Ahmed Faried, I love this piece written by Ms. Tobin (didn't see her rank). Well put. I don't doubt for a second her statements. It concerns me that she put up with jokes and other BS that shouldn't be there, but the majority of her piece talked about the pressure she put herself under and the feelings that she was alone in a sea of white. I can understand her feelings as, for a short while was one of only 3 white kids in my elementary class in Georgia. There was no racism as far as I would describe since racism requires a power base, but I can identify with the pressure of feeling "outside." That being said, it's entirely internal, but real. That does not help or hurt the case at hand. Those issues, internal or external, do not form matters of mitigation for the violation of UCMJ...which is a matter for an investigation to determine. It's informative, but does not excuse actions prejudicial to good order and discipline. Period.
(0)
(0)
CPT Ahmed Faried
2LT (Join to see) - Remaining silent in the face of an injustice is a tacit endorsement of it. So I'm heartened by your second response.
(1)
(0)
CPT Ahmed Faried
COL (Join to see) - Sir I know the feeling haha. I was one of three black officers in IBOLC. I was the only black Infantry officer in my battalion as a PL and one of three black officers in the entire BN. Concerning the picture it isn't meant to be excusatory or otherwise. It only serves to provide other context, as in, why a group of female cadets in the prestigious school that is the USMA would have cause for complaints.
(0)
(0)
Yes, especially if they are representing a group that has committed violence within the United States as well as called for the death of Law Enforcement Officer and in some cases White Americans. This is a disgrace.
(4)
(0)
CPT Ahmed Faried
2LT (Join to see) -
Reasons for a movement like Black Lives Matter*
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12253244
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/black-kids-get-less-pain-medication-white-kids-er-n427056
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/airbnbwhileblack-exposes-racial-prejudice-against-black-renters-in-sharing-economy/
*not exhaustive
Reasons for a movement like Black Lives Matter*
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=12253244
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/kids-health/black-kids-get-less-pain-medication-white-kids-er-n427056
http://www.rawstory.com/2016/05/airbnbwhileblack-exposes-racial-prejudice-against-black-renters-in-sharing-economy/
*not exhaustive

Study Points to Emergency Room Bias Against Blacks
A new study from Harvard suggests that racial bias affects the treatment that many African-American patients receive in hospital emergency rooms. Two authors of the study discuss the research and its implications.
(0)
(0)
SSG Roger Ayscue
Gentlemen, I point out that the individuals that have been killed by the police have by and large been involved in some type of criminal activity and would be alive today had they:
1) NOT been breaking the law
2) Complied with the instruction of Law Enforcement Officers
3) Shut the **** up and do what the cop tells you to do.
Chris Rock did a skit once "How to NOT get your ass beat by the Police" Number One was "OBEY THE LAW"
What part of Obey The Law is too hard to understand?
1) NOT been breaking the law
2) Complied with the instruction of Law Enforcement Officers
3) Shut the **** up and do what the cop tells you to do.
Chris Rock did a skit once "How to NOT get your ass beat by the Police" Number One was "OBEY THE LAW"
What part of Obey The Law is too hard to understand?
(1)
(0)
SSG Roger Ayscue
Capt Gregory Prickett - Not saying at all to give them a pass. But the cases that are the most publicized, like Michael Brown they try to show that he was just minding his own business, and the cop shot him for kicks. Sir, as hard as it is, I would have way way more sympathy for the innocent if the media and movements like BLM would admit that not everyone is innocent.
(1)
(0)
SSG Roger Ayscue
Capt Gregory Prickett - As for militarizing the Police, it goes right along with people in the neighborhoods KNOWING full well who the thugs and criminals are but not helping to clean up their own neighborhoods. Thugs and Criminals should be targets of opportunity.
(1)
(0)
If these Cadets are, in fact, posing in a manner that violates the DoD Directive, then appropriate action needs to happen.
(4)
(0)
MSG (Join to see)
CPT Ahmed Faried - That's why I said IF. Some could see that pose as them making a political statement (while in uniform) that supports the BLM.....or even the Black Panther (depending on perception). This will more than likely turn into a he/she said mixed with intent vs perception argument.
(0)
(0)
MSG (Join to see)
CPT Ahmed Faried - And, please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying they are, and I am not saying they aren't....but we all know, having been in the military more than a day or two, that perceptions from others of your actions, regardless of intent, can be damaging. But the Leaders of these Cadets certainly should have a sit down with them to find out what their intent was.
(1)
(0)
SSG Robert Webster
CPT (Anonymous), what is your problem? Blocking people from making a comment about something you said and posted? How on earth does the picture of the people in wheel chairs have to do with this subject and conversation?
Pull your head out of your fourth point of contact!
Pull your head out of your fourth point of contact!
(0)
(0)
MSG (Join to see)
CPT (Anonymous) - Interesting point. I will start with the bottom pic.....I have no idea what that event could be so I can't make an appropriate response. Now as for the top picture is obviously a parade that some unit marched in. Without being able to see the patch, I don't know if they are NG or USAR....but, regardless.....I agree that those beads are an issue and should have been addressed prior to the parade and the Soldiers told not to wear them while in uniform. As for being allowed to march in the parade while in uniform, I can't find anything specific, but I would have to guess that the commander authorized it. Now, if by chance that wearing of the uniform is a no no while in the parade, then the CoC needs to address that with the commander. And as I had stated in my previous comments, if violations were made, then appropriate actions needs to happen. But I will say this. If I were the 1SG of that unit, and I was asked for us to join that parade, I would have searched high and low to ensure that the regulation said yay or nay to wearing of the uniform.
(0)
(0)
Yes, they are, they are in violation!!!! No organization withing the military is authorized unless authorized! Also, this is a racial sign they are expressing, used by the Black Lives Matter movement and the Black Panthers. When are we going to uphold the regs that are written and stop the "let it go"? Suggest they be counseled on the matter so they understand and then allowed to move along in their military career! If not, this type of behavior will continue to grow and will cause problems and segregation in the future, something we fought to abolish!
The bad thing is, if someone in the future were to complain about their action at a later date and claim racism, this matter will be brought back up! Not good!
The bad thing is, if someone in the future were to complain about their action at a later date and claim racism, this matter will be brought back up! Not good!
(3)
(0)
I have heard the "they are just kids" argument plenty here.
And it's bullcrap.
These are Seniors at West Point who are about to become officers in the United States Army. They should be held to a higher standard. You can say whatever you want, but Officers in the military SHOULD be held to a higher standard. If not, then why do they exist?
There is no excuse for this.
And it's bullcrap.
These are Seniors at West Point who are about to become officers in the United States Army. They should be held to a higher standard. You can say whatever you want, but Officers in the military SHOULD be held to a higher standard. If not, then why do they exist?
There is no excuse for this.
(3)
(0)
Maj Rob Drury
I don't know why others can't see this. Consistently sound judgement is absolutely the most basic qualification for officership. It's not punishment to remove these clowns. Refusing a commission to individuals showing poor judgement is no different than refusing pilot wings to a blind individual.
(1)
(0)
Yup, I'll say that shit is racist. there's no room in the army for that. We got enough weird social experiments going on in the army then have to deal with racist female officers who would be commanding troops.. Lol so glad I'm not active duty. Takes 5 suicide prevention classes lol
(3)
(0)
Two things bother about all this. 1) Those young people do not have first hand knowledge of what Jim Crow was like. They were not there in Greensboro, where black citizens asked to be served and were denied. (Greensboro, NC.) People of the Philippines were slaves for 300 years!! They have moved on. In WWII, their kids, babies were impaled on poles for sport. But they marched the Bataan Death March and Corrigador along side Americans. They were crueally treated in their own Country. You were not here MLK was shot. I remember the event like it were yesterday. Little Rock Hall, was another instance where kids tried to go to school and were denied.
And I am pretty sure that you were not segregated and I actually witnessed the old school that was shut down. I used to play in the neighborhood. Willie and I were to a football game in Arkadelphia were the KKK were at. Willie said that, maybe we should go. lol, ya think? Were you there or where Hank Aaron had threats and his parents also. He handled it with grace. Bob Gibson who at one time, played basketball for the Globetrotters but could not stay in a white only hotel. Anheiser Busch rectified that? The backdrop to all of this is, that real people experienced stuff you had no experience with.
Lastly and more importantly you were not there and then to throw the power sign around, oblivious to the sacrifices of other blacks and you were not there. Lou Brock, Bob Gibson experienced it and so did Ozzie Smith, but the great SS got over that and said that if you don't have it, you don't miss it.
COL Sam Russell SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL did as well.
Regards and respectfully,
Larry
And I am pretty sure that you were not segregated and I actually witnessed the old school that was shut down. I used to play in the neighborhood. Willie and I were to a football game in Arkadelphia were the KKK were at. Willie said that, maybe we should go. lol, ya think? Were you there or where Hank Aaron had threats and his parents also. He handled it with grace. Bob Gibson who at one time, played basketball for the Globetrotters but could not stay in a white only hotel. Anheiser Busch rectified that? The backdrop to all of this is, that real people experienced stuff you had no experience with.
Lastly and more importantly you were not there and then to throw the power sign around, oblivious to the sacrifices of other blacks and you were not there. Lou Brock, Bob Gibson experienced it and so did Ozzie Smith, but the great SS got over that and said that if you don't have it, you don't miss it.
COL Sam Russell SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL did as well.
Regards and respectfully,
Larry
(3)
(0)

Suspended Profile
Garbage. Wouldn't want these creatures out there leading, if they do stupid shit like this before they're even in the fleet...
The comment that they are young and stupid is so oblivious, ignorant and dangerous - they are training to be officers of soldiers, what kind shit is this?? If this were a group of whites, it would automatically be shut down, condemned and potentially kicked out of the academy.
Last but not least, to summarize some of the comments - this isn't about diversity or open mindedness or freedom of speech... Screw that, they want to enter an organization that should be one unit, not divisive/everyone's feelings need to be heard/taken into consideration type of bullshit. It starts with the basics, and they can't even keep their bearing in training......
Even if there wasn't any subtext or connotation, they (cadets/classmates, whatever) should know better.
The comment that they are young and stupid is so oblivious, ignorant and dangerous - they are training to be officers of soldiers, what kind shit is this?? If this were a group of whites, it would automatically be shut down, condemned and potentially kicked out of the academy.
Last but not least, to summarize some of the comments - this isn't about diversity or open mindedness or freedom of speech... Screw that, they want to enter an organization that should be one unit, not divisive/everyone's feelings need to be heard/taken into consideration type of bullshit. It starts with the basics, and they can't even keep their bearing in training......
Even if there wasn't any subtext or connotation, they (cadets/classmates, whatever) should know better.
I believe they are in violation. Just think if me and my team of Army Recruiters took a photo like that in front of our recruiting center! Would there even be a debate if we were in violation?
(3)
(0)
The military is NOT a Social Service Organization. It has rules / laws to maintain decorum and respect.
These people violated those laws/rules and should be removed. They have disrespected the Military, the Military Academy, and the American People that provided their education.
These people violated those laws/rules and should be removed. They have disrespected the Military, the Military Academy, and the American People that provided their education.
(3)
(0)
When are they getting their walking papers? I sure as hell don't want them in my unit.
(3)
(0)
Read This Next