Posted on Jan 21, 2016
Do you believe the divide between the civilian population and the military population is widening?
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Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 28
I would tend to agree with this but think that the issue is fairly generational. Over 8 million men served in WWII in various branches of the military. The numbers aren't as high for Korea or Vietnam but still very high relative to today.
Today, there is no draft, the military is all-volunteer and it's MUCH smaller than during the Cold War so there's not as much demand for servicemembers anymore. I think that this is the root cause of this disconnect and it creates a number of problems.
On the civilian side, I think there's this sort of odd cognitive dissonance where we're all stereotyped(except by the lunatic fringe of the left) as heroes who all end up homeless, unemployed and addled by PTSD. Worse, the disconnect leaves both voters and politicians oftentimes ignorant of the military and not in a good position to make informed decisions as to its use.
However, I think the worst of the disconnect may come from the military itself. I'm not to proud to admit that I've used the term 'civilian' in a pejorative sense on many occasions and still do to this day. Nor do I think the phenomenon of holding the very people we're sworn to protect and serve in increasing contempt is unique to me. The full danger of this is the military deciding to get involved in politics. When Truman dismissed MacArthur, he didn't come back to the States and try to rally Army divisions to march on D.C. and install him as a military dictator. But the increased ignorance of politicians and public, coupled with an increasing contempt of civilians, creates the risk of ending this.
Today, there is no draft, the military is all-volunteer and it's MUCH smaller than during the Cold War so there's not as much demand for servicemembers anymore. I think that this is the root cause of this disconnect and it creates a number of problems.
On the civilian side, I think there's this sort of odd cognitive dissonance where we're all stereotyped(except by the lunatic fringe of the left) as heroes who all end up homeless, unemployed and addled by PTSD. Worse, the disconnect leaves both voters and politicians oftentimes ignorant of the military and not in a good position to make informed decisions as to its use.
However, I think the worst of the disconnect may come from the military itself. I'm not to proud to admit that I've used the term 'civilian' in a pejorative sense on many occasions and still do to this day. Nor do I think the phenomenon of holding the very people we're sworn to protect and serve in increasing contempt is unique to me. The full danger of this is the military deciding to get involved in politics. When Truman dismissed MacArthur, he didn't come back to the States and try to rally Army divisions to march on D.C. and install him as a military dictator. But the increased ignorance of politicians and public, coupled with an increasing contempt of civilians, creates the risk of ending this.
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Capt Seid Waddell
1LT Aaron Barr, this was the problem the Founding Fathers foresaw with standing armies.
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Deborah Gregson
And this is why we have a military that is sworn to protect and defend the Constitution, not the Presidency or politicians, or even the country really. It's our duty as civilians to make sure that we vote for politicians who believe in their oath to do the same, protect and defend the Constitution. The "ignorance of politicians and public" resulting in the general current anti-military attitude is no reason for the military to take it upon themselves to determine who should govern, since that would not uphold their sworn duty to the protection of the Constitution. Regardless of the viewpoint of those who are serving or who have served, the process of electing our officials is Constitutional, so when that process results in the election of numbskulls we're all subject to dealing with the outcome, like it or not. This is why it's so important to convey the message constantly, especially to citizens and politicians, of how important it is to feel responsibility to one's country and to think beyond oneself to what is important for the future of a free nation. We must follow the process of elections to change the course of legislation and political decisions concerning the military. To do otherwise is to change the foundation of our country, meaning we would become like many third world countries, because it is our elections and the peaceful change of representatives, regardless of how opposing our opinions, that sets us apart from most of the world.
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Sgt Joe LaBranche Well, I can understand why. Our administration has focused on gay issues and diverted our attention from HCR being done, when people are sleeping and not paying attention. From where I stand, they have brought down the pride in the Flag, trying to bust Generals, inactive on VA issues except talk. That and so much more.
SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas
SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas
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SSgt (Join to see)
SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas Amen and Amen! Let us not forget the attack on Christians,
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Sgt Joe LaBranche
SSgt L 02 and SMSgt Minister Gerald A. Thomas, you both are correct. We have taken God and placed Him on the back burner. Our school no longer are allowed to teach God's word, prayer at social events is outlawed, and are military personnel are discouraged from praying or mentioning God's name! 58% of our veterans say they lost their faith in battle, yet when they return home our churches ignore them and fail to reach out to them. Exodus 15 : 26 states, " For I, the Lord, am your Healer." True healing began gor me when I established an intimate, loving and personal relationship with the Lord. My AboutFace mentoring program empowers veterans to begin their restoration process and share their feelings, experiences, how they cope, and discover how they each can help their fellow combat veterans. I, personally, owe my recovery to the Lord! You can listen to my testimonial on the AboutFace website:
http://www.aboutface-usa.org.
http://www.aboutface-usa.org.
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Yes and no. Only if we let it and hold ourselves above everyone that we are supposed to be serving. In many cases I believe that a large portion of those serving believe they are better than those that we are sworn to uphold and protect. This is also true for the civilian community, they believe that we are different and therefore they ostracize us.
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Yes, it is. I've seen this building since Vietnam. We are seeing more second-generation military people (the beginnings of a military caste), less regional diversity, lower voting participation and politicization of defense policy. The flip side is that we are seeing a new generation of veterans getting into Congress and that gives me hope.
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I served from 1968 to 1972. There was outright anger towards the military from some civilians during this time frame. From my perspective, it is much better now.
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SPC Darren Koele
My father is Vietnam Veteran. He told me of the reception he got. It helped heal him a little bit when I returned from Desert Shield/Storm to a hero's welcome.
For what it's worth, I personally know a refugee from Vietnam who would darn near kiss your boots in perpetual gratitude for your sacrifice. He has nothing but love for the US military, especially Vietnam Veterans.
For what it's worth, I personally know a refugee from Vietnam who would darn near kiss your boots in perpetual gratitude for your sacrifice. He has nothing but love for the US military, especially Vietnam Veterans.
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SPC Darren Koele
To add to my previous post, here is what he wrote on Facebook late last year:
Dad, this is from Nguyen Tran. He was in Devin's class. He wanted me to pass this message along. He wants all Vietnam Veterans to see it so feel free to pass it on. His family fled Vietnam (Da Nang) in spring of '75. He wrote and posted this this past spring.
Chúc mừng năm mới!
40 years ago my parents made the decision to drop everything and with only the clothes on their back, make the long journey to the U.S. to start all over again. And I thank them for it. As I’m approaching their age I can’t imagine having to pickup what you can and drag along 4 kids(they raised 11) to a foreign land. I now have 4 of my own and it is a major task just to take them anywhere. It has been an amazing experience to say the very least for me. A little snot-nose kid half way around the world end up in the greatest country on earth. To be free and attain as much as my desire wanted is to say the very least a dream that most of my birth countrymen or on earth for that matter could only wish for.
The point of this piece is not about my parents…I expected that they know my gratitude prior to their passing. The smile on their face is priceless when I completed my last goal in higher education. The reassurance that their last inline has a chance to succeeded in this world; their job is done. This piece is not about me although I do want to express my gratitude to whom all involve. I’m writing this because there is not enough said about our men and women whom sacrifice to protect this country.
Say what you will about FB/social media but it has gave me a small opportunity to thank to all the Vietnam Veterans that I come in contact with. Not only 40 plus years ago that you extended a helping hand…you do it now to be a friend yet once again to this humble man 40 plus years later. I’m sure there are more like me but I can only speak for my self. I thank you for your sacrifice and your helping hand. My success in life is partly due to you all. Without you there would be no happy life for this man. You have taught me the loyalty and the hard work that one can pass onto another. I value what I have today and I thank you all for it. I am deeply touch in what you and your family have sacrifice for a kid you don’t even know half way around the world. I am grateful and my family is grateful. I will never forget and my children will never forget. Thank you all.
Please never think that you did all that 40 years ago is for not. Ignore the ignorance for they know not what they do.
Thank you all again and Chúc mừng năm mới! From a kid that will always be indebted to your tremendous sacrifice and generosity.
Dad, this is from Nguyen Tran. He was in Devin's class. He wanted me to pass this message along. He wants all Vietnam Veterans to see it so feel free to pass it on. His family fled Vietnam (Da Nang) in spring of '75. He wrote and posted this this past spring.
Chúc mừng năm mới!
40 years ago my parents made the decision to drop everything and with only the clothes on their back, make the long journey to the U.S. to start all over again. And I thank them for it. As I’m approaching their age I can’t imagine having to pickup what you can and drag along 4 kids(they raised 11) to a foreign land. I now have 4 of my own and it is a major task just to take them anywhere. It has been an amazing experience to say the very least for me. A little snot-nose kid half way around the world end up in the greatest country on earth. To be free and attain as much as my desire wanted is to say the very least a dream that most of my birth countrymen or on earth for that matter could only wish for.
The point of this piece is not about my parents…I expected that they know my gratitude prior to their passing. The smile on their face is priceless when I completed my last goal in higher education. The reassurance that their last inline has a chance to succeeded in this world; their job is done. This piece is not about me although I do want to express my gratitude to whom all involve. I’m writing this because there is not enough said about our men and women whom sacrifice to protect this country.
Say what you will about FB/social media but it has gave me a small opportunity to thank to all the Vietnam Veterans that I come in contact with. Not only 40 plus years ago that you extended a helping hand…you do it now to be a friend yet once again to this humble man 40 plus years later. I’m sure there are more like me but I can only speak for my self. I thank you for your sacrifice and your helping hand. My success in life is partly due to you all. Without you there would be no happy life for this man. You have taught me the loyalty and the hard work that one can pass onto another. I value what I have today and I thank you all for it. I am deeply touch in what you and your family have sacrifice for a kid you don’t even know half way around the world. I am grateful and my family is grateful. I will never forget and my children will never forget. Thank you all.
Please never think that you did all that 40 years ago is for not. Ignore the ignorance for they know not what they do.
Thank you all again and Chúc mừng năm mới! From a kid that will always be indebted to your tremendous sacrifice and generosity.
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SPC Darren Koele
Sorry. Forgot to delete the first part where I passed it on to my dad. Won't let me edit it now.
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Sgt (Join to see)
SPC Darren Koele - Thank you Darren! I joined the Marine Corps because I thought that aiding South Vietnam was a just cause, and I wanted to help. I was angry at how we abandoned the country and the people.
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Not sure if there's something in the water but 3 Marines, 2 Army officers and my self all live on the same block. So there is a much higher concentration of vets or service members in my neck of the woods. I don't live near any military complex either just the way it is. As we have many socials I feel at least the civilians are aware that there are many men and women doing some hard work. As the MAJ is still in uniform there is that "women in the military" bewilderment as that couple, ring knockers, are a recent addition. As to the shop talk that stays pretty much stays boxed in but they see how we connect on a different level than they do. However in conversations I still thank many of them wonder as to why we ever signed up. That is something that I think if you truly understand you more than likely served.
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That's not really an easy question to answer, if we look back at Vietnam and the relationship the military had with most of the civilian population things were much worse than they are today. If we look back ten years, I suspect the gap has widened a bit again.
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PO2 Mark Saffell
SSG (Join to see) I talked about that very thing. imagine being in the Navy in 1975 and in San Francisco. Back then we where told NOT to travel in uniform because they feared for our safety. that's Sad
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LTC Paul Labrador
I think the divide started when we transitioned from the "We" generation to the "Me" generation.
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SSG (Join to see)
PO2 Mark Saffell - That problem never really existed in the South (or on German kasernes where groups like RAF were the problem and most Germans viewed the US military favorably. There was plenty in the news about what was happening in other parts of the country though, and it was not pretty.
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SSG (Join to see)
LTC Paul Labrador - It seems to me the whole nation started living by the Pirates Code (take what you can, give nothing back) in the early 1980's. It seemed to get even worse after the Cold War ended.
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I am going to base my answer on 30 years worth of experience. No. I think the public sees a lot of romantic crap on TGV and in movies. but compared to when I first came in (1984) the attitude is much different. The shift came during Desert Storm- inset Whitney Houston signing the National Anthem at the Superbowl. The attitude shifted from toleration to adulation. My first 7 years were active and active reserve- never once did anyone come up and thank me for my service for the most part. After Desert Storm- the paradigm shifted 180 degrees the other way. This may not directly answer your question, but shifts focus from a perceived divide. We are still an all volunteer force, we are funded, and I don't hear a big public outcry (less the Clintons) to slash the military from the picture. Draw downs and changing missions will always have an outcome on political shaping, but today's world climate shows we need to be focused and ready. I think the public sees that as well. Again forgive me if I am reading to deep into your question.
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I'd have to agree. Seems like it happens when they no longer need us. I joined in 1975. That was the end of Viet Nam. People hated us. I was stationed in San Francisco. We never wore our uniforms off base and the Navy told us not to travel in uniform. That to me is so sad and should be a black eye for America when your active duty military aren't allowed to travel in uniform because they feared for our safety. You young guys...Less than 50 have no idea what it was like in the 70's as military.
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Capt Seid Waddell
This is an age old problem, at least today;s soldiers don't have it bad ... yet.
Tommy – by Rudyard Kipling, 1892
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/tommy.html
Tommy – by Rudyard Kipling, 1892
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
http://www.poetryloverspage.com/poets/kipling/tommy.html
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PO2 Mark Saffell
Sums it up pretty well. When they need us to fight and die...We are everyone's friend, but as soon as its done, we are left to deal with the scares and deaths. My kids ask why I am going to Arlington which is far away from home and I correct them...Its far away from you guys, who probably wont make trips to a local place but its going home to my brothers in arms.
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Sgt Dennis Ford Jr.
They are not that different than yesterday's gone by, they just DO it from a mental point of view.
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Yeah, foreigners, transplants, terrorists, bad people who have used a gun to defend their freedom and rights, and having the chance to label me.
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