Posted on Apr 17, 2018
Do you think the current approach and requirement for completion of the MLC in order to pin on MSG will keep up with force requirements?
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I am wondering what the communities thoughts are in regards to the requirement to graduate the Master Leaders Course (MLC) prior to pinning on Master Sergeant (MSG) and if the current approach will meet and keep up with force requirements.
I would like to preference this discussion by stating I am not a graduate of the course yet and do not have a projected date. With that said, I am not against the course and think a course that is MOS immaterial and focus on topics that Senior Leaders will encounter is a good idea. In my career I have comes across many Senior Leaders who are lacking in their ability to achieve that command presence. A few key topics covered in MLC that in my opinion are of great value are Mission Command, Organizational Management, and Military Briefing.
My analysis started when I was reviewing Army Career Tracker and it stated only 2% of my peers have completed MLC. This led me to do a pull of I did a pull of ATTARS for all MLC classes ever conducted or scheduled. For FY16 there was seven course; based on the names it looks like there was four pilots, one certification, and two standard for a potential of 142 graduates. For FY17 there were 16 courses conducted with a potential for 399 graduates. From October 2017 through April 2018, a potential 1,633 graduates have completed MLC. Based on ATTARS there are 36 available classes still in FY18 with a potential to graduate 1111 more students. Based on those numbers by the end of FY18 there will be a potential 3,285 MLC graduates.
If we look at just the Active component FY18 MSG list there was 3,278 selectees. At first glance, the numbers appear to add up; however, the numbers listed in ATTARS include National Guard and Reserve courses. According to the AGR/RC FY18 MSG list we need to add another 269 MSG selectees.
Based on the aggraded numbers there is 3,547 MSG selectees for FY18 with a potential to have 3,285 MLC graduates by the end of FY18. These numbers leave a delta of 262 MSG selectees without the opportunity to attend a required course to pin on their next rank.
Additionally, it would be flawed logic to think that all MLC graduates from FY16-FY18 will have all been on the FY18 MSG list. There is a potential that the MLC graduates from FY16-FY17 already pinned on MSG based on selection from the FY16 or FY17 list; those selectees would increase the delta of 262 by an unknown amount.
In conclusion my thought to the community is that by not conducting a phased in approach the delta of selectees to school dates will continue to grow unless more classes are offered or the a new approach is enacted. One potential course of action that could possible correct the delta would be to make MLC a pre-requisite for recommendation to SGM for the FY18 list, for the FY19 MSG list selectees have one year from pinning to complete the course, and for FY20 and beyond make it a requirement for pinning.
I look forward to everyone’s thought on this matter.
I would like to preference this discussion by stating I am not a graduate of the course yet and do not have a projected date. With that said, I am not against the course and think a course that is MOS immaterial and focus on topics that Senior Leaders will encounter is a good idea. In my career I have comes across many Senior Leaders who are lacking in their ability to achieve that command presence. A few key topics covered in MLC that in my opinion are of great value are Mission Command, Organizational Management, and Military Briefing.
My analysis started when I was reviewing Army Career Tracker and it stated only 2% of my peers have completed MLC. This led me to do a pull of I did a pull of ATTARS for all MLC classes ever conducted or scheduled. For FY16 there was seven course; based on the names it looks like there was four pilots, one certification, and two standard for a potential of 142 graduates. For FY17 there were 16 courses conducted with a potential for 399 graduates. From October 2017 through April 2018, a potential 1,633 graduates have completed MLC. Based on ATTARS there are 36 available classes still in FY18 with a potential to graduate 1111 more students. Based on those numbers by the end of FY18 there will be a potential 3,285 MLC graduates.
If we look at just the Active component FY18 MSG list there was 3,278 selectees. At first glance, the numbers appear to add up; however, the numbers listed in ATTARS include National Guard and Reserve courses. According to the AGR/RC FY18 MSG list we need to add another 269 MSG selectees.
Based on the aggraded numbers there is 3,547 MSG selectees for FY18 with a potential to have 3,285 MLC graduates by the end of FY18. These numbers leave a delta of 262 MSG selectees without the opportunity to attend a required course to pin on their next rank.
Additionally, it would be flawed logic to think that all MLC graduates from FY16-FY18 will have all been on the FY18 MSG list. There is a potential that the MLC graduates from FY16-FY17 already pinned on MSG based on selection from the FY16 or FY17 list; those selectees would increase the delta of 262 by an unknown amount.
In conclusion my thought to the community is that by not conducting a phased in approach the delta of selectees to school dates will continue to grow unless more classes are offered or the a new approach is enacted. One potential course of action that could possible correct the delta would be to make MLC a pre-requisite for recommendation to SGM for the FY18 list, for the FY19 MSG list selectees have one year from pinning to complete the course, and for FY20 and beyond make it a requirement for pinning.
I look forward to everyone’s thought on this matter.
NCOES
Promotions
SFC
MSG
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Responses: 27
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I have one week left. Thank God! I am enrolled in the Distance Learning. It really is like working in a vacuum. It requires a lot of self-discipline. It is mostly just meeting weekly deadlines and making sure you post/turn-in papers. Conflict with work is unavoidable, even though you are supposed to do it during the duty day. There is a little bit of guessing what the facilitator is looking for even though they publish the rubrics. Some assignments are unclear. I take that back.. a lot of the assignments are unclear. You don't collaborate or network, therefore that valuable classroom discussion is missing. Also missing is Q&A w/instructors.. in fact, there is no instructor. They are facilitators (hence, you are self-teaching yourself). You cannot work ahead. It is a set-schedule which competes with other real work. There is way too much readings. Again, if you don't know how to do voice-over Powerpoint, you either Google it, phone a friend, or ask for help from your classmates. I have spent way more midnight-hours than I have ever before. But then again, I am not the best when it comes to time management. I wish they would teach about that! Time management and Glide paths -- to stay on track and no surprises.
I don't think the facilitator even reads half of the crap I posted (you keep looking to make sure you made the required 150-200 words). So, is MLC worth it? Is it good? It forces you to focus when you're doing it. You have to cut-out the extra-crap (socializing, etc.) for the time being. It is making me a smarter, more intelligent leader. It's allowed me to re-group my thinking about my career and it has definitely re-opened my critical thinking/creative skills.
I don't think the facilitator even reads half of the crap I posted (you keep looking to make sure you made the required 150-200 words). So, is MLC worth it? Is it good? It forces you to focus when you're doing it. You have to cut-out the extra-crap (socializing, etc.) for the time being. It is making me a smarter, more intelligent leader. It's allowed me to re-group my thinking about my career and it has definitely re-opened my critical thinking/creative skills.
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This will result in just more ridiculous numbers games in the already jacked up promotions numbers. How many more classes do senior NCOs need to learn the Army writing style, which has always been at an eighth grade level? This isn’t a “net” to catch the unworthy promotables. Don’t seniors have enough BS on their plates? I also recognize that this “course”, for the most part, will be irrelevant for 11B and a few others that will likely only be promoted to 1SG, and fortunately there’s no longer a requirement of additional institutional learning and they follow the recommendations of the DA and soldiers Chain of Command.
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CSM Danny S.
You are correct this course will not do anything for a person that is promoted to 1SG. This is what happened to me. However there is two things it does for you. It will help get you ready to function at a BDE or higher headquarters, and get to experience some of what the Sergeant Majors Academy will be like. The course was only two weeks and the work load is what is really hard not the work itself.
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Good question. Several of our Soldiers justbteturned and I heard the level of rigor was high. As long as the other courses orepare them for increasing rigor.
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NCOES is mostly a waste of time and resources. It’s funny how in a time of war none of it matters.
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I'm obviously not in this branch of service or anywhere near this rank level, but my input is this:
As a Marine, you are required to take some form of a PME geared towards the next rank. PFCs/LCpls have the Leadership Seminar. Cpls have Cpl's Course. Sgt's have Sgt's Course. SNCOs have the Staff Academy along with other leadership courses.
I can see both sides of the coin. The people who want to be good leaders will go to the courses, absorb the materials and disseminate it through their ranks in order to be a good leader. The people who are just going through the motions will go to the course, check off their "requirement for promotion" and then bring back nothing of value to their unit.
I like the requirements to send you to rank specific courses because you have the opportunity to branch out from your specific work center and network with people in your rank. It also keeps you in the mindset to always continue your learning. Complacency is the biggest killer in the military. So course like this help to weed out people who are "set in their ways".
But like I said, there are those who will benefit greatly from leadership courses like this, and those who will just go through the motions. If we're lucky, the people who just go through the motions will be weeded out soon enough.
As a Marine, you are required to take some form of a PME geared towards the next rank. PFCs/LCpls have the Leadership Seminar. Cpls have Cpl's Course. Sgt's have Sgt's Course. SNCOs have the Staff Academy along with other leadership courses.
I can see both sides of the coin. The people who want to be good leaders will go to the courses, absorb the materials and disseminate it through their ranks in order to be a good leader. The people who are just going through the motions will go to the course, check off their "requirement for promotion" and then bring back nothing of value to their unit.
I like the requirements to send you to rank specific courses because you have the opportunity to branch out from your specific work center and network with people in your rank. It also keeps you in the mindset to always continue your learning. Complacency is the biggest killer in the military. So course like this help to weed out people who are "set in their ways".
But like I said, there are those who will benefit greatly from leadership courses like this, and those who will just go through the motions. If we're lucky, the people who just go through the motions will be weeded out soon enough.
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MSG Jasin Jones
Cpl Goolsby thanks for your views. As I too stated in my full topic I am all for the training. On the Army side we also have required NCO schools at all levels. Our SPC(E4) looking to pin SGT(E5) go though the Basic Leaders Course; a SGT(E5) looking to pin SSG(E6) go though the Advanced Leaders Course; a SSG(E6) going to SFC(E7) go though the Senior Leaders Course; our brand new required course as of this year is the Master Leader Course for a SFC(E7) moving to MSG(E8); then we have the Sergeants Major Academy for a MSG(E8) moving to SGM(E9).
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MSG James Devereaux
The school isn’t there to “weed” anyone out. It wasn’t the school who promoted the soldier and your mentality, if ever replicated, would turn the course into just another NCOES joke. Another net to “catch” those that shouldn’t have been promoted. Hey maybe they could conduct AR 600-9 enforcement and throw a few fat guys out and ensure they aren’t promoted as the Department of the Army and the soldiers Chain of Command has already done... Ya get my point?
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I attended in 2016 as a MSG with the knowledge that I would be teaching it in the validation portion at Camp Shelby in June of 2017.
Some things to note:
It is not designed as a replacement for the 1SG course. I will say little to nothing has to do with being a 1SG. The intent was not operational knowledge; as war fighters we know how to be a 1SG by the time we're there. We are failing at the staff levels. Parts of ILE are integrated into the course to give us a better understanding when working with staff officer counter parts. Joint doctrine is fed as well.
This is not a company level type course. It's BDE and up. It's taught in a different way (collaborative learning via experiential learning model) evaluated in a different way (essay style content based test questions) and it covers new content areas that most aren't familiar with (joint doctrine, etc).
I completely agree that it should be a requirement to pin MSG. Don't be fooled by the ATRRS numbers; quotas are going up. onlyn4 locations taught it last year. More have been validated since then. So numbers will increase. The bulk of the 16-17 numbers were MSG's and senior SFC's that were selected as possible facilitators.
Yes, people show up not ready for this course no different than any other. It's part of life. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Also, if I'm not mistaken isn't 1 Jan 2019 the cutoff date that you must have MLC to pin MSG/1SG? I might be wrong but it seems like that was the case.
Some things to note:
It is not designed as a replacement for the 1SG course. I will say little to nothing has to do with being a 1SG. The intent was not operational knowledge; as war fighters we know how to be a 1SG by the time we're there. We are failing at the staff levels. Parts of ILE are integrated into the course to give us a better understanding when working with staff officer counter parts. Joint doctrine is fed as well.
This is not a company level type course. It's BDE and up. It's taught in a different way (collaborative learning via experiential learning model) evaluated in a different way (essay style content based test questions) and it covers new content areas that most aren't familiar with (joint doctrine, etc).
I completely agree that it should be a requirement to pin MSG. Don't be fooled by the ATRRS numbers; quotas are going up. onlyn4 locations taught it last year. More have been validated since then. So numbers will increase. The bulk of the 16-17 numbers were MSG's and senior SFC's that were selected as possible facilitators.
Yes, people show up not ready for this course no different than any other. It's part of life. I've seen it with my own eyes.
Also, if I'm not mistaken isn't 1 Jan 2019 the cutoff date that you must have MLC to pin MSG/1SG? I might be wrong but it seems like that was the case.
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MSG Jasin Jones
MSG Herrington excellent information, Thank You. I agree that skills to operate at the staff level especially in an Joint Environment are lacking. As an instructor at the Digital Intelligence Systems Master Gunner Course one of our topics is JIM.
As a previously stated I am not against the course and agree with the curriculum. I still think the approach from not required to required will cause a delay.
I am not tracking t by e 01 January 2019. All references I have seen state anyone selected on the FY18 MSG list have to be a MLC graduate in order to pin on MSG.
As a previously stated I am not against the course and agree with the curriculum. I still think the approach from not required to required will cause a delay.
I am not tracking t by e 01 January 2019. All references I have seen state anyone selected on the FY18 MSG list have to be a MLC graduate in order to pin on MSG.
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MSG (Join to see)
The question is. how long to you have on the promotion list if you don't attend MLC before you are thrown off the MSG List?
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SFC Jones,
First of all, congratulations on making the list! I graduated from MLC a couple weeks ago. It was the most challenging course that I have taken. The email came out midway through our two week course that stated that a DL version of MLC is being launched. I would not want to take it in an online version. However, I believe that the Army has recognized this issue and is trying to get ahead of it.
The same problem exists in the SSG and SFC promotions. I know several SSG(P)s that have been waiting for their school date fore over a year. I beieve this is why there are no longer published sequence numbers. The Army can promote any number who fulfills the STEP requirements, no matter how many promotable SM have lower sequence numbers.
First of all, congratulations on making the list! I graduated from MLC a couple weeks ago. It was the most challenging course that I have taken. The email came out midway through our two week course that stated that a DL version of MLC is being launched. I would not want to take it in an online version. However, I believe that the Army has recognized this issue and is trying to get ahead of it.
The same problem exists in the SSG and SFC promotions. I know several SSG(P)s that have been waiting for their school date fore over a year. I beieve this is why there are no longer published sequence numbers. The Army can promote any number who fulfills the STEP requirements, no matter how many promotable SM have lower sequence numbers.
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SFC (Join to see)
Even when they had sequence numbers, they would promote down the list, if they encountered one who didn't meat the NCOES portion. they would skip to the next one. Once the skipped personnel met the ncoes requirements they'd make it during the next wave of promotions.
Or am i misremembering?
The purpose of doing away with sequence numbers was to emphasize talent over experience if i recall.
Or am i misremembering?
The purpose of doing away with sequence numbers was to emphasize talent over experience if i recall.
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MSG Jasin Jones
SFC Manwaring I have heard it is a challenging course and the AARs have all suggested it be done in a TDY status to avoid office task as well as common everyday distractions of being home. However, I do think with the proper self control and the right amount command emphases a distant learning option is viable.
SSG Pefley in regards to being skipped. That is exactly how it will work with this year list. Everyone still has a sequence number they are just not published outside of your individuals SRB. If you are Sequence Number 05 and you have not graduated MLC and on the 01 June 2018 they promote 10 people. The first 10 people with MLC will be fully eligible for promotion. However lets say you complete MLC on 10 June you do not automatically get to pin. If the 01 July list comes out and they promote enough to meet your new threshold you get to pin. However for example if there was three other individuals who were not MLC graduates but graduates the same day as you and they had lower sequence numbers. You are for all intent and purpose sequence number 4. If only three are picked you then you have to wait until 01 August.
SSG Pefley in regards to being skipped. That is exactly how it will work with this year list. Everyone still has a sequence number they are just not published outside of your individuals SRB. If you are Sequence Number 05 and you have not graduated MLC and on the 01 June 2018 they promote 10 people. The first 10 people with MLC will be fully eligible for promotion. However lets say you complete MLC on 10 June you do not automatically get to pin. If the 01 July list comes out and they promote enough to meet your new threshold you get to pin. However for example if there was three other individuals who were not MLC graduates but graduates the same day as you and they had lower sequence numbers. You are for all intent and purpose sequence number 4. If only three are picked you then you have to wait until 01 August.
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I think it’s a step in the right direction. MOS immaterial and focusing on information all leaders need to know at the CO level. My primary concern is that it will cause a backlog of personnel for promotion. With BLC, ALC, and SLC, there were a number of personnel who were already school trained when selected for promotion, whereas MLC is a relatively new program with few graduates to date. I’ll be interested to see if the various school locations can provide a throughput that will support the promotion needs of the Army. As I was selected for MSG this board, it’s definitely in my best interest that it does.
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MSG Jasin Jones
SFC White I too was selected this year which is what led me to start my fact finding mission. Based on the course overview I have seen I am glad it covers a broad range of topics not just what needs to be know as a 1SG. It looks to also prepare a Senior NCO to work on a staff in both a Traditional Army unit and a Joint Environment.
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I do feel that continued PME is vital to "keeping up" with the ever changing environment in which we find ourselves. Being an AGR E7 and having swapped the number 1 spot on the promotion list back and forth between myself and another E7 for the last 4 years, with neither of us getting the opportunity for promotion (no vacant E8 slots announced), the selfish part of me thinks than MLC should not be a requirement to PIN on E8. We have both deployed as Operations NCOs, worked with units, BNs, BDEs, from NGs of other states to Reserves and Active Component. Not to mention, for myself anyway, that 4 out of the past 5 1\2 years spent as acting 1SG for one reason or another. That experience in its self should count towards something other than good NCOER Bullets. But the SRNCO part of me is very well aware to the fact that if we do not continue to self improve our own "foxhole" the troops that we have led and are leading will pass right by us before we know it...Just my two cents worth.
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I feel that it’s a waste of time to put a soldier through “leadership” training after its had 20 years of OJT. We have enough going on, especially combat arms soldiers. If it becomes a prerequisite, then combat arms should definitely be exempt from attending. Pulling him away from the unit would only be bad for him and the unit.
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With how long we sit on the lost waiting to be promoted I do not think it is infeasible to complete MLC before your number pops.
As far as the content of the class, they can teach that stuff all day long. Everyone can learn the doctrinal definitions and theory, but that doesnt mean it will improve their command presence as you infer. I think most content should have been taught in SLC. Most people in my group had not done MDMP and couldn't even do basic analysis to create an understanding of the operational environment.
The lack of difference between the classroom and distance learning is a huge fail bu the Army. The dl class still tries to implement the experiential learning model as the method of instruction, it doesnt work in an online environment. If a person doesnt know something, looking at a minimalistic PowerPoint isn't going to teach them anything because they dont have any experience about the topic to draw from. The required posting and responses for each class are not going to Male up the difference between sitting in front of a computer or sitting in a real class with a SME that can guide the discussion.
As far as the content of the class, they can teach that stuff all day long. Everyone can learn the doctrinal definitions and theory, but that doesnt mean it will improve their command presence as you infer. I think most content should have been taught in SLC. Most people in my group had not done MDMP and couldn't even do basic analysis to create an understanding of the operational environment.
The lack of difference between the classroom and distance learning is a huge fail bu the Army. The dl class still tries to implement the experiential learning model as the method of instruction, it doesnt work in an online environment. If a person doesnt know something, looking at a minimalistic PowerPoint isn't going to teach them anything because they dont have any experience about the topic to draw from. The required posting and responses for each class are not going to Male up the difference between sitting in front of a computer or sitting in a real class with a SME that can guide the discussion.
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Greetings:
The current approach is no different than in the past. Today, we still need ALC to be promoted to SSG, and as well SLC for SFC. How about the SGM's academy to be promoted SGM? MLC is just a little bump to MSG.
The current approach is no different than in the past. Today, we still need ALC to be promoted to SSG, and as well SLC for SFC. How about the SGM's academy to be promoted SGM? MLC is just a little bump to MSG.
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The NCO CORPS needs to fix current training before it goes wasting money on new courses. No challenge for ALC and SLC. NOT REALISTIC AND ONLINE WITH CURRENT MILITARY OPERATIONAL ARMY DAILY MISSIONS.
TRADOC NEEDS TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM! HOAAH
TRADOC NEEDS TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM! HOAAH
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I have been in a position to where some fellow MSG's did not have the experience for a command position, the command looked down on their opinions. Not know what to say and how to say it has a definite impact on you and your rank you hold. I feel that this course will help, but it should be with in the first year after being pinned if you can't get the school before.
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Have you seen the proposed nonresident for MLC, TRADIC and USASMA are aware of this and have a few COAs to assist. Also, understand that not everyone will be selected for MSG or SGM so it’s a die roll anyway.
Like you, I did not attend MLC as I was pinned prior to it being a requirement. However, I did attend the 1SG course and MLC is a much improved version of it only it wasn’t a requirement. I think as the shape of the Army changes investing in the NCO Corps and the future of our leader is a good thing.
As for who will be trained and not trained, MLC liken itself to how NCOs attend USASMA.
Like you, I did not attend MLC as I was pinned prior to it being a requirement. However, I did attend the 1SG course and MLC is a much improved version of it only it wasn’t a requirement. I think as the shape of the Army changes investing in the NCO Corps and the future of our leader is a good thing.
As for who will be trained and not trained, MLC liken itself to how NCOs attend USASMA.
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MSG Jasin Jones
MSG I have heard of the non-resident course and I think more of these will get to the heart of the issue to keep up with the "demand" that the resident course will not be able to fill. I know things in the Army take time but I was simply looking at the facts as they were laid out. The available seats advertised did not meet the requirement as put out FY18 list.
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Not a lot of info out there on the Reserve side. Heard you had to be selected?! If that's the case, then its bullshit.
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MSG Jasin Jones
MSG Haines I have not heard if there is going to be a different timetable or rules for the Reserves. All I have to go off of is from MILPER message 17-333 which states: "Effective with the FY18 MSG promotion selection list, Soldiers must graduate the Master Leaders Course (MLC) to be considered fully qualified for promotion pin-on. This requirement (linking MLC to MSG promotion) will be captured in the next published iteration of AR 600-8-19." With that being said all I know is you have to be a graduate in order to pin on MSG. However, you do not have to be "selected" to attend MLC. In order to get ahead of this issue there was guidance published that stated the FY18 classes that were conducted prior to the release of the FY18 list were individuals that were deemed likely to be selected on the FY 18 MSG list.
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MSG (Join to see)
MSG Haines,
The info you've been given is incorrect. I have not been selected yet and neither I knew someone at HRC. I only sent an email requested the privilege to attend MLC... within 3 or 4 weeks, I received an email telling me that I have a reserve seat for MLC DL, 14 August thru 25 September. It was hard. I spent an average of 14 hours a day for 40 days to successfully graduate. Take it from me, it was worth it. The army is changing in order to adapt with this era of uncertainty.
The info you've been given is incorrect. I have not been selected yet and neither I knew someone at HRC. I only sent an email requested the privilege to attend MLC... within 3 or 4 weeks, I received an email telling me that I have a reserve seat for MLC DL, 14 August thru 25 September. It was hard. I spent an average of 14 hours a day for 40 days to successfully graduate. Take it from me, it was worth it. The army is changing in order to adapt with this era of uncertainty.
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