Posted on Apr 17, 2018
Do you think the current approach and requirement for completion of the MLC in order to pin on MSG will keep up with force requirements?
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I am wondering what the communities thoughts are in regards to the requirement to graduate the Master Leaders Course (MLC) prior to pinning on Master Sergeant (MSG) and if the current approach will meet and keep up with force requirements.
I would like to preference this discussion by stating I am not a graduate of the course yet and do not have a projected date. With that said, I am not against the course and think a course that is MOS immaterial and focus on topics that Senior Leaders will encounter is a good idea. In my career I have comes across many Senior Leaders who are lacking in their ability to achieve that command presence. A few key topics covered in MLC that in my opinion are of great value are Mission Command, Organizational Management, and Military Briefing.
My analysis started when I was reviewing Army Career Tracker and it stated only 2% of my peers have completed MLC. This led me to do a pull of I did a pull of ATTARS for all MLC classes ever conducted or scheduled. For FY16 there was seven course; based on the names it looks like there was four pilots, one certification, and two standard for a potential of 142 graduates. For FY17 there were 16 courses conducted with a potential for 399 graduates. From October 2017 through April 2018, a potential 1,633 graduates have completed MLC. Based on ATTARS there are 36 available classes still in FY18 with a potential to graduate 1111 more students. Based on those numbers by the end of FY18 there will be a potential 3,285 MLC graduates.
If we look at just the Active component FY18 MSG list there was 3,278 selectees. At first glance, the numbers appear to add up; however, the numbers listed in ATTARS include National Guard and Reserve courses. According to the AGR/RC FY18 MSG list we need to add another 269 MSG selectees.
Based on the aggraded numbers there is 3,547 MSG selectees for FY18 with a potential to have 3,285 MLC graduates by the end of FY18. These numbers leave a delta of 262 MSG selectees without the opportunity to attend a required course to pin on their next rank.
Additionally, it would be flawed logic to think that all MLC graduates from FY16-FY18 will have all been on the FY18 MSG list. There is a potential that the MLC graduates from FY16-FY17 already pinned on MSG based on selection from the FY16 or FY17 list; those selectees would increase the delta of 262 by an unknown amount.
In conclusion my thought to the community is that by not conducting a phased in approach the delta of selectees to school dates will continue to grow unless more classes are offered or the a new approach is enacted. One potential course of action that could possible correct the delta would be to make MLC a pre-requisite for recommendation to SGM for the FY18 list, for the FY19 MSG list selectees have one year from pinning to complete the course, and for FY20 and beyond make it a requirement for pinning.
I look forward to everyone’s thought on this matter.
I would like to preference this discussion by stating I am not a graduate of the course yet and do not have a projected date. With that said, I am not against the course and think a course that is MOS immaterial and focus on topics that Senior Leaders will encounter is a good idea. In my career I have comes across many Senior Leaders who are lacking in their ability to achieve that command presence. A few key topics covered in MLC that in my opinion are of great value are Mission Command, Organizational Management, and Military Briefing.
My analysis started when I was reviewing Army Career Tracker and it stated only 2% of my peers have completed MLC. This led me to do a pull of I did a pull of ATTARS for all MLC classes ever conducted or scheduled. For FY16 there was seven course; based on the names it looks like there was four pilots, one certification, and two standard for a potential of 142 graduates. For FY17 there were 16 courses conducted with a potential for 399 graduates. From October 2017 through April 2018, a potential 1,633 graduates have completed MLC. Based on ATTARS there are 36 available classes still in FY18 with a potential to graduate 1111 more students. Based on those numbers by the end of FY18 there will be a potential 3,285 MLC graduates.
If we look at just the Active component FY18 MSG list there was 3,278 selectees. At first glance, the numbers appear to add up; however, the numbers listed in ATTARS include National Guard and Reserve courses. According to the AGR/RC FY18 MSG list we need to add another 269 MSG selectees.
Based on the aggraded numbers there is 3,547 MSG selectees for FY18 with a potential to have 3,285 MLC graduates by the end of FY18. These numbers leave a delta of 262 MSG selectees without the opportunity to attend a required course to pin on their next rank.
Additionally, it would be flawed logic to think that all MLC graduates from FY16-FY18 will have all been on the FY18 MSG list. There is a potential that the MLC graduates from FY16-FY17 already pinned on MSG based on selection from the FY16 or FY17 list; those selectees would increase the delta of 262 by an unknown amount.
In conclusion my thought to the community is that by not conducting a phased in approach the delta of selectees to school dates will continue to grow unless more classes are offered or the a new approach is enacted. One potential course of action that could possible correct the delta would be to make MLC a pre-requisite for recommendation to SGM for the FY18 list, for the FY19 MSG list selectees have one year from pinning to complete the course, and for FY20 and beyond make it a requirement for pinning.
I look forward to everyone’s thought on this matter.
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Responses: 27
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I feel that it’s a waste of time to put a soldier through “leadership” training after its had 20 years of OJT. We have enough going on, especially combat arms soldiers. If it becomes a prerequisite, then combat arms should definitely be exempt from attending. Pulling him away from the unit would only be bad for him and the unit.
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With how long we sit on the lost waiting to be promoted I do not think it is infeasible to complete MLC before your number pops.
As far as the content of the class, they can teach that stuff all day long. Everyone can learn the doctrinal definitions and theory, but that doesnt mean it will improve their command presence as you infer. I think most content should have been taught in SLC. Most people in my group had not done MDMP and couldn't even do basic analysis to create an understanding of the operational environment.
The lack of difference between the classroom and distance learning is a huge fail bu the Army. The dl class still tries to implement the experiential learning model as the method of instruction, it doesnt work in an online environment. If a person doesnt know something, looking at a minimalistic PowerPoint isn't going to teach them anything because they dont have any experience about the topic to draw from. The required posting and responses for each class are not going to Male up the difference between sitting in front of a computer or sitting in a real class with a SME that can guide the discussion.
As far as the content of the class, they can teach that stuff all day long. Everyone can learn the doctrinal definitions and theory, but that doesnt mean it will improve their command presence as you infer. I think most content should have been taught in SLC. Most people in my group had not done MDMP and couldn't even do basic analysis to create an understanding of the operational environment.
The lack of difference between the classroom and distance learning is a huge fail bu the Army. The dl class still tries to implement the experiential learning model as the method of instruction, it doesnt work in an online environment. If a person doesnt know something, looking at a minimalistic PowerPoint isn't going to teach them anything because they dont have any experience about the topic to draw from. The required posting and responses for each class are not going to Male up the difference between sitting in front of a computer or sitting in a real class with a SME that can guide the discussion.
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Greetings:
The current approach is no different than in the past. Today, we still need ALC to be promoted to SSG, and as well SLC for SFC. How about the SGM's academy to be promoted SGM? MLC is just a little bump to MSG.
The current approach is no different than in the past. Today, we still need ALC to be promoted to SSG, and as well SLC for SFC. How about the SGM's academy to be promoted SGM? MLC is just a little bump to MSG.
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The NCO CORPS needs to fix current training before it goes wasting money on new courses. No challenge for ALC and SLC. NOT REALISTIC AND ONLINE WITH CURRENT MILITARY OPERATIONAL ARMY DAILY MISSIONS.
TRADOC NEEDS TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM! HOAAH
TRADOC NEEDS TO GET WITH THE PROGRAM! HOAAH
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I have been in a position to where some fellow MSG's did not have the experience for a command position, the command looked down on their opinions. Not know what to say and how to say it has a definite impact on you and your rank you hold. I feel that this course will help, but it should be with in the first year after being pinned if you can't get the school before.
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Have you seen the proposed nonresident for MLC, TRADIC and USASMA are aware of this and have a few COAs to assist. Also, understand that not everyone will be selected for MSG or SGM so it’s a die roll anyway.
Like you, I did not attend MLC as I was pinned prior to it being a requirement. However, I did attend the 1SG course and MLC is a much improved version of it only it wasn’t a requirement. I think as the shape of the Army changes investing in the NCO Corps and the future of our leader is a good thing.
As for who will be trained and not trained, MLC liken itself to how NCOs attend USASMA.
Like you, I did not attend MLC as I was pinned prior to it being a requirement. However, I did attend the 1SG course and MLC is a much improved version of it only it wasn’t a requirement. I think as the shape of the Army changes investing in the NCO Corps and the future of our leader is a good thing.
As for who will be trained and not trained, MLC liken itself to how NCOs attend USASMA.
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MSG Jasin Jones
MSG I have heard of the non-resident course and I think more of these will get to the heart of the issue to keep up with the "demand" that the resident course will not be able to fill. I know things in the Army take time but I was simply looking at the facts as they were laid out. The available seats advertised did not meet the requirement as put out FY18 list.
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Not a lot of info out there on the Reserve side. Heard you had to be selected?! If that's the case, then its bullshit.
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MSG Jasin Jones
MSG Haines I have not heard if there is going to be a different timetable or rules for the Reserves. All I have to go off of is from MILPER message 17-333 which states: "Effective with the FY18 MSG promotion selection list, Soldiers must graduate the Master Leaders Course (MLC) to be considered fully qualified for promotion pin-on. This requirement (linking MLC to MSG promotion) will be captured in the next published iteration of AR 600-8-19." With that being said all I know is you have to be a graduate in order to pin on MSG. However, you do not have to be "selected" to attend MLC. In order to get ahead of this issue there was guidance published that stated the FY18 classes that were conducted prior to the release of the FY18 list were individuals that were deemed likely to be selected on the FY 18 MSG list.
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MSG (Join to see)
MSG Haines,
The info you've been given is incorrect. I have not been selected yet and neither I knew someone at HRC. I only sent an email requested the privilege to attend MLC... within 3 or 4 weeks, I received an email telling me that I have a reserve seat for MLC DL, 14 August thru 25 September. It was hard. I spent an average of 14 hours a day for 40 days to successfully graduate. Take it from me, it was worth it. The army is changing in order to adapt with this era of uncertainty.
The info you've been given is incorrect. I have not been selected yet and neither I knew someone at HRC. I only sent an email requested the privilege to attend MLC... within 3 or 4 weeks, I received an email telling me that I have a reserve seat for MLC DL, 14 August thru 25 September. It was hard. I spent an average of 14 hours a day for 40 days to successfully graduate. Take it from me, it was worth it. The army is changing in order to adapt with this era of uncertainty.
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