Posted on Nov 25, 2014
Do you think the differences in retirement systems for active and reserve are fair and equitable? i.e. gray-area wait, points, etc
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Retirement
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 9
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Something to toss into the pot. Many times I have had to deal with National Guard members who had never deployed and thus were not eligible for VA benefits. Just doing the minimum in the Reserves/Guard won't get you anywhere - but then I think we all know that. I think the issue of parity is a gross misnomer. I did both reserves and AD - but not Guard. Training was and probably is still a function of money available - ergo it's possible to have a big year and max out on points in one year and barely make a "good" year the next. However, with parity comes risk and immersion. As MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca mentioned with increased rank comes increased focus and "time for the flag" - but there still remains some possibility for a career for the Guard/Reservist as a civilian. On AD, I had two shore commands - which SHOULD have been rather peaceful and uneventful - one out of two ain't bad I guess. In the one shore command I was actually able to be "human"... I had some time off (read: greater than 10 hours a week) and for a short time actually had a part-time job. For the rest of my 23 years - not so much. While onboard ship - the ship was my life. Whether I was underweigh or on the pier getting ready to get underweigh it was a constant sprint. Though while at the pier I will confess to working only 12 hour days (not counting duty days). At sea....meh...18 hour minimum and 20 hours the average day, 7 days a week.
So, do I think the Guard/Reservist that didn't spend 20+ years on AD (or a day for day equivalent) should get paid full benefits and retirement the day they retire? Ahhhhhh.....NO.
So, do I think the Guard/Reservist that didn't spend 20+ years on AD (or a day for day equivalent) should get paid full benefits and retirement the day they retire? Ahhhhhh.....NO.
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CMSgt Robert Gates
I had 12 years Active Duty and transferred to the Reserves where I served another 24 years for a total of 36 years military service. During the Gulf War 70% of my squadron were called to Active Duty. Being in Aircraft Maintenance, many of those called up went down range with their Active Duty counterparts. Could not tell the difference as well as it should be. I retired at age 55 (High Year Tenure). I received on base privileges and that was it. It was not until I turned age 60 that I received my retirement and Tricare benefits. It would seem that those who were called up should receive some retirement benefits. There has been numerous thoughts of reducing down from age 60 to a lower age for retirement based upon time served while being called up. Those plans never made it very far. AFA and AFSA organizations have been at the forefront of these plans. Just some thoughts from someone who served in both arenas.
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I don't have issue with it and Tricare has been fantastic as a primary health insurance. CW5 (Join to see) we serve 48 drill periods - 4 per month (2 days) or split as needed for training, plus our 2 weeks title 32 active duty as a unit or for individual schools not to mention ADSW - additional title 32 for planning, ADVONs, etc. For me, it was more like 1 weekend & 2 days ADSW a month and 5 weeks AD a year. 75 points is a "good" year for NG and reserves towards retirement and every school and AD day above that gives you more points. A deployment year you could earn you 500+ points which increases your retirement pay. I had 7 years with at least 150 points or more.
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CW5 (Join to see)
MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca, thanks for the clarification. I had no idea that much time was involved. I thought one weekend a month and two weeks a year.
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MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
Well like everything else CW5 (Join to see), ads are deceiving. The average Joe does just that, a weekend a month and 2 weeks a year. You get to senior enlisted an O ranks and its almost impossible to do the bare minimum. A lot of "For the Flag" time is also involved. As a M-Day company commander I was in the Armory 2-3 times a week. Then if you get money for MOS/specialty and career schools, you have to do those or lose the money.
In 2005 when we deployed, we did Yama Sakura in Japan in January as our AT. I was on the ADVON so that was 3 weeks. We got alerted for Iraq in February. Another 2 weeks of planning conferences in between April & May, 5 weeks at Grafenwoehr for pre deployment exercise with 5th Corps. This was all before we MOBed to Dix in August then Deployed in OCT. Thank God our civilian jobs are protected by law and that my employer at the time was understanding.
In 2005 when we deployed, we did Yama Sakura in Japan in January as our AT. I was on the ADVON so that was 3 weeks. We got alerted for Iraq in February. Another 2 weeks of planning conferences in between April & May, 5 weeks at Grafenwoehr for pre deployment exercise with 5th Corps. This was all before we MOBed to Dix in August then Deployed in OCT. Thank God our civilian jobs are protected by law and that my employer at the time was understanding.
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SSG Peter Ludlum
CW5 (Join to see) As a lot of folks do Chief. We had several folks from OIFII get diverted from going home to New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina. People forget we have state missions and we are the only military force other than the Coast Guard that operates within the boarders of the US.
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In order to proper answer the question of are the retirement systems for active and reserve fair and equitable, I would need to understand both systems which I do not. A sub question is if the retirement systems are fair and equitable within their respective components (active and Guard/Reserve). Some data points.
- About 330 million Americans and about less than 1% of Americans serve in the military.
- Only about 15% of Active Army Soldiers serve until retirement.
- An active Soldier can retire at 20 years with 50% basic pay (not total compensation). Each additional year earns an additional increase of 2.5% (ie 30 years is 75%: 10 years x 2.5% = 25% increase above 50%).
- A LTC who retires at 20 years earns more than a MSG who retires at 20 years due to difference in base pay for each even though each earned 50% retirement.
- Is a 20 year or nothing system fair and equitable for a Soldier who serves 17 years and then is forced out due to reduced force size and not due to any personal misconduct?
- What is the reserve retired system (basic facts)?
- About 330 million Americans and about less than 1% of Americans serve in the military.
- Only about 15% of Active Army Soldiers serve until retirement.
- An active Soldier can retire at 20 years with 50% basic pay (not total compensation). Each additional year earns an additional increase of 2.5% (ie 30 years is 75%: 10 years x 2.5% = 25% increase above 50%).
- A LTC who retires at 20 years earns more than a MSG who retires at 20 years due to difference in base pay for each even though each earned 50% retirement.
- Is a 20 year or nothing system fair and equitable for a Soldier who serves 17 years and then is forced out due to reduced force size and not due to any personal misconduct?
- What is the reserve retired system (basic facts)?
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SSG John Erny
COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM,
Sir, it is based on points, for example my three years of active duty gave me 360 points (yes they round down) For one training day you get two points assuming 12 2 day drills = 48 points. AT is active time so you get 1 point per day 2 weeks = 14 points plus 15 membership points = 77 points. They then total up your points after you retire and run it through a formula.
You can earn extra points through CC courses, funeral honors, or taking part in a guard event say helping the recruiter.
When money is not tight plan on at least two or three six day drills and attending both Schools and AT. It is not hard at all to get over 100 points from days in uniform alone. My high I think was 120 days, that is a third of a year. I had one 3 week AT helping a unit deploy.
Sir, it is based on points, for example my three years of active duty gave me 360 points (yes they round down) For one training day you get two points assuming 12 2 day drills = 48 points. AT is active time so you get 1 point per day 2 weeks = 14 points plus 15 membership points = 77 points. They then total up your points after you retire and run it through a formula.
You can earn extra points through CC courses, funeral honors, or taking part in a guard event say helping the recruiter.
When money is not tight plan on at least two or three six day drills and attending both Schools and AT. It is not hard at all to get over 100 points from days in uniform alone. My high I think was 120 days, that is a third of a year. I had one 3 week AT helping a unit deploy.
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LTC(P) Harden Hopper
Jason - to shed a little [more] light on it: The traditional reservist/guardsman doesn't draw retired pay until age 60. In addition, that pay is a prorated amount that essentially accounts for the relative time or days a reservist spent on duty compared to an active duty counterpart. This is reflected in an accumulated points system for drills, schools, mobilization to active duty, etc.
A typical example would be a reservist retiring at 40 with 20 years of service. The individual would wait until 60 to draw the check. But, their points might only reflect 10 years of relative active duty time. Therefore, the individual would draw half of what an active service member would draw in monthly retired pay.
That is of course one hypothetical example, and other things factor in, like grade, time in service, etc which affect point values. The relative active duty part makes sense to me, in reflecting a benefit for service, but not the wait for drawing the benefits.
A typical example would be a reservist retiring at 40 with 20 years of service. The individual would wait until 60 to draw the check. But, their points might only reflect 10 years of relative active duty time. Therefore, the individual would draw half of what an active service member would draw in monthly retired pay.
That is of course one hypothetical example, and other things factor in, like grade, time in service, etc which affect point values. The relative active duty part makes sense to me, in reflecting a benefit for service, but not the wait for drawing the benefits.
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LCDR Doug Nordman
The Reserve/National Guard retirement topic is the most popular post on the blog, and the most misunderstood/underappreciated systems as well. To be fair, it's also one of the most horrifically complicated pension plans you'll ever encounter.
For example SSG Erny, when you transition from active duty to the Reserve/Guard your record is supposed to reflect a point for each day (leap years included). I'm not sure why a one-year mobilization would only give you 360 points instead of 365 (or 366) but when you file for retired awaiting pay then your pension will be calculated by dividing your points into that same 360 number. That's because a military pay year has 12 30-day months, or 360.
More mind-boggling (or mind-numbing) details are at these posts:
http://the-military-guide.com/2012/02/27/calculating-a-reserve-retirement/
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/11/01/comparing-an-e-7-active-duty-pension-to-an-e-7-reserve-pension/ (just updated to 2014 pay tables!)
Over the months since I've written that Reserve retirement post, I've noticed that it gets exceptionally heavy traffic on Sunday evenings. In other words, lots of people start reading it right after everyone gets home from the drill weekend-- is that correlation a coincidence or causality?
And here's more regulations on active-duty pensions:
http://the-military-guide.com/2012/07/05/the-regulation-for-calculating-an-active-duty-pension/
Just in case you're looking for more:
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/08/05/military-reserve-retirement-points-and-good-years/
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/11/07/options-for-national-guard-and-reserve-retirement/
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/09/30/national-guard-and-reserve-retirement-at-the-maximum-pay/
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/09/26/reserve-retirement-eligibility/
For example SSG Erny, when you transition from active duty to the Reserve/Guard your record is supposed to reflect a point for each day (leap years included). I'm not sure why a one-year mobilization would only give you 360 points instead of 365 (or 366) but when you file for retired awaiting pay then your pension will be calculated by dividing your points into that same 360 number. That's because a military pay year has 12 30-day months, or 360.
More mind-boggling (or mind-numbing) details are at these posts:
http://the-military-guide.com/2012/02/27/calculating-a-reserve-retirement/
http://the-military-guide.com/2014/11/01/comparing-an-e-7-active-duty-pension-to-an-e-7-reserve-pension/ (just updated to 2014 pay tables!)
Over the months since I've written that Reserve retirement post, I've noticed that it gets exceptionally heavy traffic on Sunday evenings. In other words, lots of people start reading it right after everyone gets home from the drill weekend-- is that correlation a coincidence or causality?
And here's more regulations on active-duty pensions:
http://the-military-guide.com/2012/07/05/the-regulation-for-calculating-an-active-duty-pension/
Just in case you're looking for more:
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/08/05/military-reserve-retirement-points-and-good-years/
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/11/07/options-for-national-guard-and-reserve-retirement/
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/09/30/national-guard-and-reserve-retirement-at-the-maximum-pay/
http://the-military-guide.com/2013/09/26/reserve-retirement-eligibility/
Military Retirement Calculator - Reserve Retirement
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Not sure if fair but the Reserve Components are being called upon too often to support the AC but the Reserve Component has the Soldiers/Units that are required to support the ACs needs!!
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Without the Reserve the Active Component would be unable to complete their missions and deployments. I.E. the Army Reserve has 90% of medical units, lawyers, water purification, petroleum units etc...Hope that helps!! Hooah!
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[approaching this from the O perspective, since that's what I am, similar for E]
I have an equity objection to the grey area for reservists. I understand why it makes financial sense for DOD to do it the way they do... but it would make the same financial sense if applied to Active troops.
The result is that a reserve forces officer can be forced into "retirement" at as early as 47-49, and not be able to draw retirement PAY for another 11-13 years. (Note: Yes, 90 day for 90 reduction for title 10 tours ISO contingency ops since 2008) Often necessitating a "bridge" job to make up the difference in income streams.
I also think that the 28 years of commissioned service cap should be looked at with fresh eyes. First, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to force people out when they are really hitting their professional/executive prime in terms of knowledge, skills, and experience. Second, from the reserve standpoint, 28 years of reserve service is NOT the same as 28 years of active service, especially as promotions come slower. However, the prime objection is the forced brain drain. It worked for an industrial-age Army, but I don't think it works for an information-age one.
(Or I just happen to know that my MRD is less than 4 years away.....)
That said, I don't think the current environment is one where there will be a lot of sympathy for fundamental changes to the personnel system, however potentially beneficial.
I have an equity objection to the grey area for reservists. I understand why it makes financial sense for DOD to do it the way they do... but it would make the same financial sense if applied to Active troops.
The result is that a reserve forces officer can be forced into "retirement" at as early as 47-49, and not be able to draw retirement PAY for another 11-13 years. (Note: Yes, 90 day for 90 reduction for title 10 tours ISO contingency ops since 2008) Often necessitating a "bridge" job to make up the difference in income streams.
I also think that the 28 years of commissioned service cap should be looked at with fresh eyes. First, I don't think it makes a lot of sense to force people out when they are really hitting their professional/executive prime in terms of knowledge, skills, and experience. Second, from the reserve standpoint, 28 years of reserve service is NOT the same as 28 years of active service, especially as promotions come slower. However, the prime objection is the forced brain drain. It worked for an industrial-age Army, but I don't think it works for an information-age one.
(Or I just happen to know that my MRD is less than 4 years away.....)
That said, I don't think the current environment is one where there will be a lot of sympathy for fundamental changes to the personnel system, however potentially beneficial.
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LTC(P) Harden Hopper
Vincent - the gray-area issue has always been my bone of contention. The retired pay amount is already reduced [in most cases] to reflect a comparative active duty service time, but the wait period seems to devalue the benefit without rationale, other than to save money.
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I think they are generally fair, but I like SSG Peter Ludlum's idea to give Guard and Reserve special credit for deployments.
I was an active duty guy, so I'm biased in that direction. When I served my 30 years of active duty, I could not (not easily, at least) pursue another career. Guard and Reserve personnel train about 40 days a year (I think?) and do have a second (actually, a first) career, so overall I think the retirement systems are generally fair.
I was an active duty guy, so I'm biased in that direction. When I served my 30 years of active duty, I could not (not easily, at least) pursue another career. Guard and Reserve personnel train about 40 days a year (I think?) and do have a second (actually, a first) career, so overall I think the retirement systems are generally fair.
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SSG John Erny
CW5 Scott Montgomery,
CW5 Scott Montgomery,
I have had as many as 120 days, add in NCO Schools and Other Schools it can add up fast. You can also be put on active orders if they are short on full time soldiers. Officers I think also put in a lot more time than just the one weekend and 2 weeks in the summer.
CW5 Scott Montgomery,
I have had as many as 120 days, add in NCO Schools and Other Schools it can add up fast. You can also be put on active orders if they are short on full time soldiers. Officers I think also put in a lot more time than just the one weekend and 2 weeks in the summer.
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CW5 (Join to see)
Thanks for letting me know that, SSG John Erny. I did not know that. I understand that when you deploy, you're "out of pocket" and cannot pursue your first career. But do you do 120 days a year? Or a max of 120 days some years?
I'm not - by any means - discounting the importance of the Guard and Reserves - I'm just pointing out that there's a major difference between Guard/Reserve and Active Duty, so one shouldn't be surprised that retirement plans are also different.
I'm not - by any means - discounting the importance of the Guard and Reserves - I'm just pointing out that there's a major difference between Guard/Reserve and Active Duty, so one shouldn't be surprised that retirement plans are also different.
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SSG John Erny
CW5 Scott Montgomery, it all comes down to budget, if the money is there they will train you.
The retirement systems is for the most part fair; but, the Guard is not what is not what it was 20 years ago. The days of guzzling beer and raising hell are gone. We are far more professional now. I have seen Active soldiers attend guard NCO Schools. We now have what are called active advisers that guide the way. If a state does a great job they get more funding from the feds.
BTW, if you put in 20 years as a full time guard member you retire as active.
The retirement systems is for the most part fair; but, the Guard is not what is not what it was 20 years ago. The days of guzzling beer and raising hell are gone. We are far more professional now. I have seen Active soldiers attend guard NCO Schools. We now have what are called active advisers that guide the way. If a state does a great job they get more funding from the feds.
BTW, if you put in 20 years as a full time guard member you retire as active.
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LTC Dr Richard Wasserman
The retirement point system for the Reserve and Guard have gotten much better over the years. When I first joined, the max inactive point total per year was 60. That means: drills and things that you HAD to do and might not get paid for. Now I believe it's 130. We called it "doing it for the flag". Active duty gets paid 24/7. We have to fight to get paid in $$$ or points for everything. Budget is always an issue. Also, we are required to attend all of the schooling that the Actives do and we have to take time from our employers to accomplish. It can be enjoyable, but it sure ain't 1 weekend and 2 weeks like the advertising used to say.
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Long ago it was fair, but in today's world the Guard and Reserve have deployed the same or in most cases more times. I think it may be time to offer A deduction from age 60 for every 6 months in hostile fire zones. This would max out at age 53. The only medical benefit for service connected injuries is the already over burdened and corrupt VA system that is killing our young troops at alarming rates. As we draw down our active forces the Guard and Reserve missions will increase.
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CW5 (Join to see)
Thanks for schooling me on that, SSG (Join to see). I think that's fair. 90-day chunks ... I guess we could argue whether that's fair ... but overall it seems like a fair program.
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SSG Peter Ludlum
SSG (Join to see) Yes they did do that however Most of the long deployments were drawn to 1 year or less. Those of us with the 2 year tours didnt get that. Its all good
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COL Vincent Stoneking
It is also worth noting that the law applies to deployments after 1 Jan 2008. Any deployment time between 9/11/2001 and 12/13/2007 doesn't count to lower the retirement age (though the points are still points....).
There have been a number of attempts to "fix" that, but there seems to be little political support behind it. I do not expect a change.
There have been a number of attempts to "fix" that, but there seems to be little political support behind it. I do not expect a change.
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SSG Peter Ludlum
We won't see a change since it will cost the government money and why change it when you can get it for free
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