Posted on Aug 23, 2015
Does a Permanent Profile prevent somebody from being on the Commandant's List?
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So here my question, have a Soldier in WLC who is on a permanent profile. Because of this, they are excluded from commandant's list, honor grad, so on. Is there a set standard Army wide for this? Because if other WLC's don't follow that, then they are losing out on receiving those extra point and competitiveness for promotion later on.
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 22
I would be curious to find out where this is, because I’m confident that there is no regulation that states a person with a permanent profile can’t be identified for Commandant’s List. It would seem to be a local school house decision. This doesn’t seem like something the Army would condone. If the service member has been specifically told you are excluded because of a profile, I would hope that there is a policy or guidance that came down from the Army to support that decision (I doubt it). It seems to me a bit prejudice toward personnel who still continuing to serve regardless of medical disability. Please follow up and see if there is some sort of regulation or Army Policy on this. I for one have not heard of an Army Policy that would authorize this.
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SGM Steve Wettstein
1SG (Join to see) I was on the Commandant's List at ANCOC and had a permanent profile. To make up for the lower APFT score I had to have a higher GPA.
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A permanent profile should not limit your potential for honors within an NCOES course. SGT Efaw's post shows that Ft. Jackson's NCO Academy is handling permanent profiles the right way. If there are NCO Academy's that are following different standards then it is not fair to the soldier and discriminatory toward soldiers with a permanent profile. An NCO Academy should, at a minimum, be using the standard in AR 600-8-19, in regards to APFT score calculation, when determining honors eligibility. I attended ALC and SLC with a permanent profile and was distinguished honor grad from both. Fortunately that NCO Academy had a common sense and fair standard.
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I do not remember what the cut off was, but when I went through WLC in 2013, we were one of the first cycles (at least that's what we were told) to require a particular APFT score to make commandants list. I suspect that SPC Benjamin Roeder hit the nail on the head. It's not that a permanent profile is barred from making commandants list, but that it's hard to over come a 60 point score in one event.
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SFC Lisa Hirst
That is correct. An alternate event can only score 60 pts as its a go no go event for promotion purposes is when a score is used other than that the APFT becomes a pass or fail
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SGT (Join to see)
Correct me if I am wrong here, (I would have to look the reg up to confirm) But I thought that when you have an alternate event the scoring for that event is the AVERAGE of the events that you can do. So if you have to walk instead of run, then the average score of the push-ups and sit-ups together would be your walk score.
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SSG Jason Trammell
SGT (Join to see) - That isn't always true Sgt Merchant, I wished it was the case.
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No it should not preclude them from commandant's list or honor grad. I have a permanent profile and just finished alc. It should not be used against him in anyway. See EO or IG about discrimination.
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WO1 (Join to see) I was on the Commandant's List at ANCOC and had a permanent profile. To make up for the lower APFT score I had to have a higher GPA.
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I was kept from the Commandants list due to a walking profile that kept my PT score at 60 in that one event.
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SGT(P) Gloria Francis
If you scored 100 on the other 2 events your score would have been 300. The profile itself didn't keep you from commandant's list, your scores did. If you weren't on profile & didn't score enough on the APFT you still would have missed commandant's list.
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I have a P2 and I made Commandants List for ALC. (This was several years ago, but I do not think that changed).
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Chief, I believe it's a individual cadre decision and it depends on the profile. Does the profile keep the Soldier from fully participating as the rest of the Soldiers? If the Soldier has a P3 hearing profile and can pass a APFT, participate in all marching, combatives, land nav and all the physical stuff, then they should not be excluded from the Commandants list. If there is no training or school reg that governs this, then its like I said. Cadre decision based on type of profile and varies from Cadre to Cadre.
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It depends on the profile, for instance. If you can do pushup and situps but cannot run. The way it was done when I went was you needed to score at least 270 on the PT test to be on Commandant list. Even if you scored perfect on 2 out of 3, you were only given a minimum score of 60 on one that you have a Permanant profile for. That is what happened to me, I always scored higher than 270 on every PT test (100 on the run) , but, had developed a tumor right above my right knee, that created problems for my run, so I had a permanent profile for running, even though I still liked to run. I was in the top 10% of my PLDC class and had a 94% overall and was excluded from Commandant list, because of the Profile. Hope this helps.
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The profile will not stop you from the CMDTs list since it is computed based on GPA and performance evals. However is the permanent profile prevents the students from
performing something like marching or rucking then yes it would be impossible to properly grade them if they can't March troops for D&C eval or ruck march during STX lanes.
performing something like marching or rucking then yes it would be impossible to properly grade them if they can't March troops for D&C eval or ruck march during STX lanes.
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All NCOES have to follow the Course Management Plan that is for that specific course (i.e. WLC, ALC etc.). This is regulatory guidance from the Sergeant Major Academy. According to the latest CMP for WLC, a soldier can only be removed from receiving honors if they are issued a negative 4856 at any time during the course or their GPA falls short of the top 20%.
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There's no regulation on this matter. I know because I was challenged & proved my leaders wrong. The only thing to prevent a Soldier from such thing is being flagged. If this Soldier is being singled out it's discrimination under the disable act. People do dumb things not knowing the regulations & are not called out on it. Don't allow this to happen to your Soldier.
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Active Component Frequently Asked Questions (FAQs), Version 6 ...
https://www.hrc.army.mil › assets › pdf
Apr 7, 2014 - Section 4: Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT)/Profiles ... Section 10: Command List Integration .... New Answer: An automated calculation of promotion scores is based ... New Answer: The Company Commander must sign a .
https://www.hrc.army.mil › assets › pdf
Apr 7, 2014 - Section 4: Army Physical Fitness Test (APFT)/Profiles ... Section 10: Command List Integration .... New Answer: An automated calculation of promotion scores is based ... New Answer: The Company Commander must sign a .
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There is NO stipulation in any reg that excludes soldiers on permanent profile to make any accolade list in any NCOES. The only thing it says is that the profile can not limit the soldier from completing all requirements to graduate. That being said, they don't calculate the score for alternate event as if it was for promotion ( which a lot of people have a misassumption about too, but that's a different topic). So you wouldn't get a score for the alternate event. And that, of course, puts you at a disadvantage against your peers. And it's hard to make up those points in the academic portion.
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Perm profile does not get you off the list. Any PT or course failures get you bumped off.
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I can say that it shouldn't exclude permanent profiles. I know because I have a perm profile for a knee injury and still made Commandants List in WLC at the 7th Army Academy here in Germany. Though that may be because I was still able to do an alternate event and my profile wasn't laden with a lot of stipulations.
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WO1 (Join to see) is there more to this story than you may know about? I am making the assumption that this is your soldier that you are talking about.
In the responsible NCOA information packets or course material is this a stated obstruction? Or, is this something that the soldier and or you have been told and by whom?
The reason that I have an interest in this is that when I was a student at ANCOC, I became violently ill during qualification on the range, which caused me to get a No Go. This knocked me out of the running for any honors for the course. Academically at the end of the course, I was number 2 and the point difference was by .002 points. If I had not gotten sick and had qualified on the first go around, I would possibly have been number one in the class. Oh well.
Good luck to your soldier.
In the responsible NCOA information packets or course material is this a stated obstruction? Or, is this something that the soldier and or you have been told and by whom?
The reason that I have an interest in this is that when I was a student at ANCOC, I became violently ill during qualification on the range, which caused me to get a No Go. This knocked me out of the running for any honors for the course. Academically at the end of the course, I was number 2 and the point difference was by .002 points. If I had not gotten sick and had qualified on the first go around, I would possibly have been number one in the class. Oh well.
Good luck to your soldier.
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That's my concern on this. Honors should be from academics, not the APFT. I know when I was attending NCOES, they had the Iron Soldier for APFT scores. Honors was solely based off academics. The Soldier has a limiting profile that excludes sit-ups and does the walk instead. But unless this is Army wide standard they should not be excluded. If a WLC at Ft Hood allows them to compete for Honors but the one at Bragg doesn't(example), you basically limited the Soldier solely off duty stations.
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SGT (Join to see)
The PT score is factored into the GPA, which could make it more difficult for your soldier to make CL, but as long as he got a first time go on the PT test and ht/wt/tape, he shouldn't have been DQ'd on account of his APFT...
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