Posted on Mar 11, 2014
Does anyone else think the Army is getting soft?
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I mean like a very thin skin, overdoing "Political Correctness". It seems out of control.
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To be short and sweet, yes it is. So many NCO's walking around scared to make a correction because you might offend a Soldier with the way you talk to them. Soldiers complaining because you dropped the "F-bomb" while correcting them and you get in trouble for it. Then you listen to them talk while they are in line at the DFAC and the language they are using is 10X worse than you would ever use. Welcome to having Soldiers in service who grew up in what I call the "playstation era" They grew up with a video game controller in their hands instead of doing chores or going outside and playing with friends. I pull what's left of my hair out on a daily basis in an attempt to not choke these kids out. They talk about how stressed they are with being in AIT even though they are spoiled that it makes me sick. And these are the Army's future leaders!! I ask them all the time, "if you can't handle the stress of someone raising their voice to you, what are you going to do when the IED goes off or the bullet hits your windshield?" They look at me like I'm crazy, but it's a very valid question. I'm sorry about the rant, but all of the changes that the Army has implemented over the years has weakened our Army.
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Depends on what you consider soft. Are Soldiers these days more apt to complaining and speaking their mind than they used to. Absolutely, but that is a consequence of the evolution the Army has taken these past 13+ years. When an organization drills into everyone to make "critical thinking" an important part of developing Soldiers I believe that the consequences of that action is lost on the "tough" Soldiers of the previous version of the military. When you encourage a private to think critically about a situation you, in essence, encourage them to think by themselves or independently. No longer do they require step by step direction by the sergeant to get things done. Most lower inlisted of the last decade has recieved this ideal and as such are less inclined to agree with the BS (for lack of a better phrase) of days past, you know the old addage "there's the right way, the wrong way and the army way." I think the problem has become the inability for the older generation to adapt to a different leadership style than that of the past which used to consist of E1-E4 just being mindless drones. Now leaders have to *INSPIRE* troops, which i feel is too difficult for some to accept.
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Jim Allen III
Perhaps you should check into the new reqirements coming out in October for Physical Readiness To Go to Battle and be able to uphold the phydical requirements a soldier on the battlefield will face. Our current Army is soft by the Major General's own words today.
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I agree with SFC(R) Gates. It is a societal issue. Our military refelects our society, always has and always will. Our Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, and Seamen come from our society and they bring the things that they have learned from our society with them. I for one believe that we have noticed a significant increase in discipline issues within the military because of this. Our society as a whole has seen the same issue get more and more out of hand over the years. My personal belief is that this likely spawns from the way most children are raised these days and have been for two decades or more. I won't go any deeper into my beliefs on why this is. But yes, our mliitary is getting softer in some aspects and it comes from changes in our society.
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CPT (Join to see)
SGT(P) Pruett, I think that you are correct that not being able to smoke Soldiers and only being able to counsel them is part of the problem. Ultimatley that stems from the societal changes that SFC Gates and myself were commenting about. But yes, I do agree that smoking Soldiers worked in the past but that was also when it was a societal norm for parents to discipline children in ways that were more physical than a simple "you should not do that" for fear of someone calling the cops on you.
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SFC (Join to see)
The dog who fears his master always think of the moment he will be able to eat his nose. The dog who loves his master will give his life for him
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SFC (Join to see)
SGT Pruett,
There was a time, not long ago when I really thought things were getting better. After 9-11 for a few years, we were improving as a Army. More emphasis on shooting, moving, communicating and winning the fight. I think when we became short on manpower and lowered standards we started "rotting" on the lower enlisted side.
On the Sr. O and NCO level, well thats been going on for a much longer time. But we are now seeing the dividends of political correctness. Sometimes a leader has to be willing to fall on his sword to protect the institution. I don't think too many would these days.
I suspect it parallels what happened after Vietnam. Had to wait until the Soldiers who were LT/CPTs in the 60's had become LTC/COL/GO's in the 80's to repair the damage. OTOH many of our current political leadership are not very supportive of the military…until they need us.
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SGT (Join to see)
SFC Ross, please don't take this as a personal insult due to your rank, but in my opinion the "rotting" has worked it's way into the more senior levels on the enlisted side as well. I have ran into quite a few SSG/SFC's that can tell me all about how they got promoted and what they have done to get ahead, but have absolutely no idea on how to train or lead a Soldier. The numbers of true "quality" NCO's are decreasing at an alarming rate.
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I agree that the Army is getting soft and the fact that the reason for it is because of the society in which younger soldiers are coming from. The issue is the fact that since the society is changing to this soft entitled generation, our Army feels the need to change with it and cater to the young Joe who wants thing easy and given to them without learning or really gaining anything from the experience. For this I am worried that it will eventually get to the point where our Military as a whole will become so soft due to the old guard, if you will, moving out and being replaced by these younger soft soldiers making way for an overall unorganized and undisciplined fighting force. If you take a look at other countries around the world and view there militaries, ours looks like a frat party. Sometimes I am disappointed to see a group of our soldier in formation next to a formation from a foreign military. Our military is getting soft and until our higher leaders decide to draw a line and allow the military to fix the young generation from the start and train them to be SOLDIERS and not just the soft civilians that they are, then the problem will only continue to grow.
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As a whole YES! i do think it is. There are exceptions of course.
To me it is a leadership question, I believe that many GO's and Sr. NCO's are too "politically correct" and just tell the politicians what they want to hear.
None seem willing to "resign in protest"over anything. Standing by your principles is something preached but not followed.
There is another "Task Force Smith" episode coming somewhere, we are going to pay for this weakness in blood.
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The army is a cross section of the country if it seems the army is getting soft that is because the country is already soft.
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Yes it is. When I can in 2004 if we screwed up we got smoked until our NCO got tired. This new Army is nothing like when I came in. I would love to go back to the way that it use to be because Soldier's didn't even think twice to get out of line.
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SSG Nebel,
I agree that the Army's emphasis on political correctness is too strong. It's almost as though I never left the private sector.
As for those who say that we junior enlisted are undisciplined simply because our NCOs don't smoke us, I disagree. Personally, I'd be more fearful of getting a counseling statement than getting smoked. A smoking would last less than a day and wouldn't jeopardize my career, plus I love doing PT. A counseling statement, on the other hand, goes on record and could ultimately lead to termination.
We don't have any soldiers in my company who would disrespect an NCO. If someone were to try it, he'd be hating life because our Senior NCOs don't stand for that kind of bull. I believe it all comes down to leadership, or lack thereof.
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I have read almost all the posts on this question, I want to add a twist to it. Is the Army getting soft or are the Leaders getting soft?
In my 24 years I have seen alot, I am not going to say that in 1990 when I came in it was harder, if you go back and find some of the old Army regs. no where does it say you can smoke Soldiers, there is not much difference in tyhe the regs today than 1990 and before. I feel that it is not the Army getting soft, as much as leaders being lazy. I have seen counseling packets of Soldiers that his NCO want chaptered but only one counseling statement, not happening. It should not take a 1SG to tell someone to counsel a Soldier, as soon as that Soldier does something wrong put it on paper. Smoking Soldiers is for the lazy leader because it does not take any thought to make a Soldier push or whatever exercise. Put it on paper!!!
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SSG Jeffery Nebel
Here's the thing MSG, you can't even say "Smoke" a soldier anymore. The politically correct term is "Corrective Training". I'm all about being creative with corrective training. But every once in a while, a Joe needs a good old smoke session to get the blood flowing back to the brain-housing-group.
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SSG (Join to see)
i got out in 98 and went straight into the guard, did a yr and a half in the guard and came back because honestly that was just a mess. When I was in-processing at Jackson on my way to Germany prior svc personnel were in charge of KP at the DFAC, I was telling this one PVT we were processing with that he was a soup-sandwich etc...(2000 now mind you) and was reprimanded for saying it... smh
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I think the Army as a whole has gotten a bit soft and as a whole I mean AD, Nat. Guard and Reserves.
We have a lot of Soldiers in our ranks today who don't take the level of pride in self that they should, but we also have a lot of leaders who don't enforce the standards appropriately and instill that pride.
SFC Gates is 100 percent correct in his response where he mentioned that we have Soldiers who whine and cry to someone who will listen because they got their feelings hurt, but then what are we as their leaders doing to put a stop to it? Many do nothing at all.
My 1SG tells NCO's in our Unit often that we as leaders need to make sure we do our Soldier counselings on a regular basis. Not just to ensure that our troops know where they stand performance-wise, but also to make sure that when we push for a non-recommend for promotion or a discharge that we have our justification of why.
I can't stand a cry baby in my ranks. I have no use for one and they irritate me to no end, but I as a leader have the ability through appropriate justification (Performance Oriented and Developmental Counseling) to have such Soldiers expedited out of my ranks.
Too many leaders don't do the counselings as needed and then have no justification to have a Soldier removed from service or held up from promotion due to performance issues. What that ultimately leads to is Soldiers who didnt take pride in self and cried about getting their feelings hurt were allowed to be promoted through the ranks and now those NCO's are perpetuating the cycle.
I will never say it is "failed leadership" because I truly believe most leaders are doing their damnest to train their Soldiers and set the right example, but we as leaders at all levels have to use the tools at our disposal to make sure we have a well trained force of motivated Soldiers.
I really believe it all boils down to counseling properly.
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America is getting soft and overdoing "Political Correctness" as a whole. I often visit forums for films and nearly every time someone has to claim something is racist, sexist etc. It is not just the army.
However, a society that conducts itself with effective compassion and cohesion can then swiftly step forward in a new frontier of social evolution. However, too much political correctness creates a false reality and forces others to complain about things that do not exist. Every generation seems to complain about the one after them. However, each generation brings something new to the table. Someone from my generation invented FB and exploded social networking. He is now a billionaire and I am sure the very website we are talking on right now is based on his work. It has been said throughout history Brains VS Brawns VS Beauty(professional appearance). I feel we can have all if we find a perfect medium. The army of today is filled with individuals who do not blindly follow, they are critical and creative thinkers. Now, there is a time and place for this but with today's options, it can happen. There was a time that an Enlisted Soldier did NOT keep their rank when they transferred units, they were brought back down to square one. only Commissioned Officers kept their ranks during that time period. Once this was changed I am sure the previous generation complained about how EASY the next generation had it because they got to keep their rank/grade. Every change you see throughout life is simply that, change. The best way to deal with a shifting river, is to ride along.
However, a society that conducts itself with effective compassion and cohesion can then swiftly step forward in a new frontier of social evolution. However, too much political correctness creates a false reality and forces others to complain about things that do not exist. Every generation seems to complain about the one after them. However, each generation brings something new to the table. Someone from my generation invented FB and exploded social networking. He is now a billionaire and I am sure the very website we are talking on right now is based on his work. It has been said throughout history Brains VS Brawns VS Beauty(professional appearance). I feel we can have all if we find a perfect medium. The army of today is filled with individuals who do not blindly follow, they are critical and creative thinkers. Now, there is a time and place for this but with today's options, it can happen. There was a time that an Enlisted Soldier did NOT keep their rank when they transferred units, they were brought back down to square one. only Commissioned Officers kept their ranks during that time period. Once this was changed I am sure the previous generation complained about how EASY the next generation had it because they got to keep their rank/grade. Every change you see throughout life is simply that, change. The best way to deal with a shifting river, is to ride along.
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SSG Nebel,
I agree that portions of the military are getting softer. I believe the primary change started when they took Drill Sergeants out of Basic in an attempt to make AIT more a kin to college life.
I had a female show up to the unit, on her 3 or 4th day at the unit she showed up late. When told by a Non Commissioned officer to Do pushups she said "No, i dont wanna. Just counsel me and get over it". She went on to express that this is how it was in AIT and she never did anything her NCOs told her to do unless she wanted to do it. It took weeks to get her to go to Parade rest when she spoke to an NCO.
I agree that portions of the military are getting softer. I believe the primary change started when they took Drill Sergeants out of Basic in an attempt to make AIT more a kin to college life.
I had a female show up to the unit, on her 3 or 4th day at the unit she showed up late. When told by a Non Commissioned officer to Do pushups she said "No, i dont wanna. Just counsel me and get over it". She went on to express that this is how it was in AIT and she never did anything her NCOs told her to do unless she wanted to do it. It took weeks to get her to go to Parade rest when she spoke to an NCO.
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SSG Oliver Mathews
SGT Ruehs,
You would have made it a point to get her kicked out? I dont agree with this being the correct process of thought. If a soldier has a problem, hell if the soldiers attitude is a problem its OUR RESPONSIBILITY, as Junior NCOs to correct the situation or exhaust all efforts trying.
To many times have i seen a soldier that has a hard time, or isnt "up to snuff" get put out of the army. We need to change our thought process back to a little bit old school. Be a true leader/NCO and train/mentor/lead that soldier to be better.
To many times have i seen a soldier that has a hard time, or isnt "up to snuff" get put out of the army. We need to change our thought process back to a little bit old school. Be a true leader/NCO and train/mentor/lead that soldier to be better.
The adage says 10% will take 90% of the time. I believe its those 90% that truly help shape a person into an NCO. Its that 90% that helps teach you how to lead the best. what would you learn from only dealing with the 90%?
I guess i should have added that Yes she did reshape to be a pretty decent soldier, and we never gave her an Article 15.
Leadership needs to Empower the subordinates. NCOs that are empowered have the ability to change the dynamics of a Unit.
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SSG Oliver Mathews
SSG Woods,
Welcome to the world where no one is punished for being a Rude inconsiderate (BEEP) (BEEP)ing (BEEP) (BEEP)er as a child.
I wanted to beep a bit today...
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It is to the point that I am actually ashamed to say I was even in the Army because I don't want to be lumped into the mess that is there now. I retired in 2007 because I saw how it was starting to become a social experiment instead of a fighting institution. The leaders you have now I wouldn't follow because they lack the military bearing and intelligence that I demand in someone that wants to lead soldiers.
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The Army ISN'T getting soft! You just have men in POWER who are expanding their THINKING!
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Is this where all Marines insert a Yes vote? Oh I see....you cleverly left out the actual Vote mechanic. LOL
I am of course just halfway yanking your chain...however...anyone that gets too bent by my comments only serves to argue my point for me. =)
I am of course just halfway yanking your chain...however...anyone that gets too bent by my comments only serves to argue my point for me. =)
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Simply, yes. We had a soldier get to the unit, and claimed PTSD, having never been deployed, simply from getting yelled at. Other soldiers are walking around not doing as they know they should thinking that they can just fight back, and push off officers and NCOs because they don't want to do something. I made an on the spot correction for a soldier not wearing his gloves(a requirement during the winter months in Alaska), and he simply responded with "yea, they're in my car. I'll put them on later." I acted on it by finding his nco, and found out later that nothing had come of it, because the soldier whined until his nco dropped the matter. When I signed my contract, I knew I wasn't going to be able to speak my mind at times, and expected to get yelled at. Being politically correct isn't something that we need to take so close to heart in the military, as it will slowly tear away at the fabric of our culture that is necessary for the good order and discipline that is required to go into combat, and have everyone come home alive.
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I'd like to thank everyone for taking the time to respond. What I was trying to get at was the way the Army has transformed over the past 13 years. Some of us that were around "Pre-9/11" remember the days of in ranks Class A inspections more than 1or2 times a year. Or perhaps the soldiers nowadays asking "Why?" To things we wouldn't have imagined questioning, we just did it because we were told to.
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