Posted on Jul 23, 2020
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I'm deployed and saw this CPL with a ponytail down to the middle of her back. When I approached the Warrant Officer in charge of group he said it's because she's about to fly. I can't find anything in AR 670-1 that states their grooming standards are relaxed. Am I wrong for correcting the Soldier? PFC (Join to see) SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" LTC Stephen F. CPL Dave Hoover SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth SGT (Join to see) Capt Dwayne Conyers CPT Jack Durish MSG (Join to see) SGT (Join to see)
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Responses: 43
LCDR Joshua Gillespie
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I am not familiar with the current Army regulations... but I do know that just about anytime we had a female helo pilot on deck in the Navy...you'd see the ponytail hanging down under the helmet (funny story about me asking one out over the radio once... but I'll save that for another time). My guess, having been in aviation for a little while and worn a helmet... is that it's probably a less than ideal fit with the hair "up". That might be "official policy", or not... but as with most things, it's probably best to let their chain of command worry about it.
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LCDR Joshua Gillespie
LCDR Joshua Gillespie
>1 y
CSM John Mead - Not my place to question your position; AR-670-3(c) also supports your comments. Merely answering a question based on my experiences in aviation. My personal feelings? It's not something I, as an officer would normally get involved in. If my SNCOs had an issue with it... they'd correct it. If they didn't... I probably wouldn't fall on that particular sword without understanding why they were tolerant of it first. Thank you for keeping us straight.
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
>1 y
LCDR Joshua Gillespie - no problem sir. My issue is that an NCO approached a warrant officer to inquire about an obvious discrepancy and received a subpar and totally off base response. Perhaps if he had been a senior NCO, the result would have been different. I would have fired his backside up. I'm not sure how aviators act, but as long as they wear a uniform, they'll conform to regulations.
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SFC Stanley Nelson
SFC Stanley Nelson
>1 y
About to Fly is very vague. Now how long could it possibly take to take her ponytail down and be ready to Fly? Not long I’m guessing. If I was about to get off work in about an hour, does the mean I can start get out of Uniform?
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SPC Kevin Ford
SPC Kevin Ford
>1 y
LCDR Joshua Gillespie That was exactly my thought. The hair wouldn't easily fit under the helmet and be an uncomfortable distraction. I suspect it is a commander using discretion to meet mission objectives. As others have pointed out it does raise questions about what "about to fly is" and if it is a problem why have that much hair?
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CSM Michael Chavaree
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If she is in a flight uniform, about to fly... I dont see the issue. There is no proximity from aircraft nor time till flight requirement. If the senior leader in the crew aallows it... I would support their decision and rock on. Side note... pony tails should be allowed, its about time to change the standard. Every other country I am currently deployed with wears them, and I allow them in my Role III.
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
>1 y
CSM Michael Chavaree Mike, youre just egging me on, aren't you? Just trying to push the envelope to see what it'll take to set me off. Well, I'll tell you this. I won't knuckle under or listen to bullshit how commanders allow this, or allow that. It all falls back on the senior enlisted advisor. That's right, you, the CSM. Evidently too many have gotten wrapped up in the Christmas tree uniform crap. Full colored unit patches, tabs here and there, like participation trophies for five year olds. It's disgusting that in the last 15-20 years that the only thing that the SMA's have accomplished eere to switch from Class A greens to the blue ASU, to a pinks and green service uniform, redo the APFT a few times, fiddle with the NCO-ER, and whatever other useless bullshit comes to town. When I had to brief to the ADC about the different typed of tattoos my troops had during a training brief, I knew that it was time to go. For you to try to justify to me utter nonsense and just shrug it off with it doesn't matter, the old man signed off on it, is utterly appalling. Screw it, you did get me wound up and I don't let that happen often. Anyway, do your time and pursue other pursuits while you can. At least Agent Orange isn't going to wait 50 years to catch up with your ass. Drive on and do great things. Out here.
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CSM Michael Chavaree
CSM Michael Chavaree
>1 y
No agent orange here just gunshot wounds and shrapnel. I am not trying to egg you on, we just dissagree and I am using references and examples. You have no idea the challenges we face during this almost two decades at war, fixing the close minded “garrison” Army that was built by people who had no idea how to fight an endouring war. If everything was great, we would have left it alone. The modern military is more agile and elite than it has ever been because we have leaders that can make common sense decisions and apply critical thinking to outsmart our advisaries. At the end of the day you fail to realize that a commander has command of his/her eliment and has earned command authority over said organization and members regardless of what you think. If the Army wanted a CSM to have command authority they would have granted it. You keep saying thinks like presence and experience as if I have no clue what you are talking about. None of that matters if a commander gives you as a CSM a lawful order to about face and move out. You just dont have that authority regardless of how powerful you think you are. I lead my folks through inspiration not fear. CSM John Mead
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
>1 y
CSM Michael Chavaree leadership through a fear based philosophy is the worst form of guidance ever visited on a unit. My father was a career CSM himself with a terminal assignment in Vietnam from 70 to 71. He even influenced the replacement company to assign me to his division when I got there. I was able to convince the SFC in charge of assignments ro change that for me. I could only imagine the crap I'd have faced otherwise. I can sympathize with you if you have a commander who won't listen to advice and tells you to bugger off. I had one like that and our time together was short lived. I repeatedly tried to teach/coach him, but to no avail. He eventually screwed himself. In the course of maintaining continuity in the unit, my only concern were the troops. It was like watching your parents fight. In the end, when I received no assistance from higher, I let the SOB hang himself. Right, not professional, but without higher's help, I couldn't do squat. He was extremely toxic and everyone feared him. I already had 25, so what could he do? All in all, I hear a lot about current commanders who are like that. My assessment of.any crop of senior commander is not as positive as yours. I keep seeing repetitive errors being made, as if no historical data is kept for future leaders. Oh well, my time is long past. You are no doubt correct that our soldiers are the best, otherwise why do they keep enlisting/reenlisting? It's funny how you and I started as antagonists and now we share insights. Perhaps you are correct in your view of how things should be, and I'm no doubt of another era and way of doing things. Whatever gets things done, I imagine. Good talking with you.
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CSM Michael Chavaree
CSM Michael Chavaree
>1 y
Emotion is lost in text, I respect you greatly and would love to pick your brain. I know I am a bit different, but I have different perspectives from my experiences. CSM John Mead
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SFC Telecommunications Operations Chief
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You weren’t wrong exactly. But always consider time place and information you may not be privy to.

Story time: a much younger SPC who looks a lot like I used to look and has the same name as me once had to be physically restrained from punching a LTC. An ROTC cadet who was close friends with not-SPC-Foreman had died in a car crash and not-SPC-Foreman went to the ROTC building to bear the tragic news. Not-SPC-Foreman was in civilian clothes and a baseball cap. Also in tears. Not-SPC-Foreman informally briefed them cadre on the details. The battalion commander/professor of military science - a ring knocker who only left the academic world long enough to achieve the minimal command and staff time to obtain LTC - gruffly responded “Well that sucks now take your hat off in my building”

He was right. Not-SPC-Foreman was in violation of a policy. But was that the time, place, and manner to address such a minimal violation?

The OPS NCO, a gregarious and troop-focused former tanker 1SG, snatched up not-SPC-Foreman into his office to calm down. And not-SPC-Foreman withdrew from ROTC the following week.

Time and place kid. Time and place.
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CSM John Mead
CSM John Mead
>1 y
Your analogy doesn't even match the story at hand. A deficiency is just that. the SGT approached the senior member of the corporal's group to address the issue. he did what was right. Though I am sorry to hear of Not-SPC-Foreman's friends passing, that particular case is not of the same fabric.
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Melissa Didericksen Didericksen
Melissa Didericksen Didericksen
>1 y
Exactly what previous post is saying, yours was a whole other situation.
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