Posted on May 27, 2017
Does Constitutional military service mean "follow the chain of command without exception"?
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Constitution Service
Posted 7 y ago
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Day by day, I am losing faith in our military officer and enlisted education and leadership development programs due to statements and questions like the one at the head of this discussion.
Define "Constitutional military service". What does that even mean?
Next - Is your question, follow the chain of command OR follow orders?
That is two distinctly different questions.
Let's address "follow the chain of command" branch -
The "chain of command" is the rules for who's in charge of who in a company, a government department, the army, etc. In other words, it's the structure of relationships between superiors and subordinates, like bosses and their employees.
The phrase "chain of command" comes from the military, where there are strict rules about who is higher up (generals, etc) and lower (privates, sergeants) in the organization. The order is supposed to be like a chain from lowest to highest:
•Private > Sergeant > Lieutenant > Major > Colonel > General
To "follow" the chain of command means to follow the rules about who is allowed to make different decisions in an organization.
For Army personnel see FM 6-22 - "Furthermore, it also produces leaders that possess the integrity and willingness to act in the absence of orders, when existing orders, doctrine or their own experience no longer fit the situation, or when unforeseen opportunities or threats arise."
Now let's address the "follow orders" branch -
"But the general rule is that members of the armed forces are bound to obey only the lawful orders of their commanding officers and they cannot escape criminal liability by obeying a command which violates international law and outrages fundamental concepts of justice.”
“The acts of a subordinate done in compliance with an unlawful order given him by his superior are excused and impose no criminal liability upon him unless the superior’s order is one which a man of ordinary sense and understanding would, under the circumstances, know to be unlawful, or if the order in question is actually know to the accused to be unlawful.” - United States v. Calley, 22 U.S.C.M.A. 534, 542 (C.M.A. 1973)
For all military personnel see the DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE LAW OF WAR MANUAL
MAJ Bryan Zeski LT Shannon R SPC Bonnie Tabb Dennis Cpl Ray Fernandez SFC (Anonymous) SPC (Join to see) Capt Seid Waddell 1SG (Join to see)
LTJG (Join to see)
Define "Constitutional military service". What does that even mean?
Next - Is your question, follow the chain of command OR follow orders?
That is two distinctly different questions.
Let's address "follow the chain of command" branch -
The "chain of command" is the rules for who's in charge of who in a company, a government department, the army, etc. In other words, it's the structure of relationships between superiors and subordinates, like bosses and their employees.
The phrase "chain of command" comes from the military, where there are strict rules about who is higher up (generals, etc) and lower (privates, sergeants) in the organization. The order is supposed to be like a chain from lowest to highest:
•Private > Sergeant > Lieutenant > Major > Colonel > General
To "follow" the chain of command means to follow the rules about who is allowed to make different decisions in an organization.
For Army personnel see FM 6-22 - "Furthermore, it also produces leaders that possess the integrity and willingness to act in the absence of orders, when existing orders, doctrine or their own experience no longer fit the situation, or when unforeseen opportunities or threats arise."
Now let's address the "follow orders" branch -
"But the general rule is that members of the armed forces are bound to obey only the lawful orders of their commanding officers and they cannot escape criminal liability by obeying a command which violates international law and outrages fundamental concepts of justice.”
“The acts of a subordinate done in compliance with an unlawful order given him by his superior are excused and impose no criminal liability upon him unless the superior’s order is one which a man of ordinary sense and understanding would, under the circumstances, know to be unlawful, or if the order in question is actually know to the accused to be unlawful.” - United States v. Calley, 22 U.S.C.M.A. 534, 542 (C.M.A. 1973)
For all military personnel see the DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE LAW OF WAR MANUAL
MAJ Bryan Zeski LT Shannon R SPC Bonnie Tabb Dennis Cpl Ray Fernandez SFC (Anonymous) SPC (Join to see) Capt Seid Waddell 1SG (Join to see)
LTJG (Join to see)
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SSG Robert Webster
MAJ Bryan Zeski - Actually, they weren't told that exact phrase as you wrote it. The exact phrase out of context was: "Follow the chain of command without exception." There was nothing said about or even relating to "Constitutional military service," your words.
Here is the full of what was said in relation to the phrase that you are attempting to highlight:
"Next is orientation to authority. Nothing I have to explain to those of you sitting before me today. Follow the chain of command without exception. Submit yourselves, as the saying goes, to the authorities that have been placed above you. Trust your superiors, trust your orders, and you'll serve and lead well."
And this is at the tail end of the part on leadership.
Now that we have established that is particular statement was made in the context of leadership, we can actually break it down to what I think that the Vice President was trying to impress upon people.
Let's examine the terminology of "orientation to authority", this is a phrase used as a point in Management and is taught in classes on management. "Orientation to authority" is another name for the cultural value of "power distance." Power distance is the extent to which the lower ranking individuals of a society "accept and expect that power is distributed unequally". (Describes military and civilian hierarchy (chain of command) quite well.)
Then we can lace that into Leadership. To "follow" the chain of command means to follow the rules about who is allowed to make different decisions in an organization.
Bottom line or executive summary - Follow the rules.
http://time.com/4796186/vice-president-mike-pence-naval-academy-graduation-commencement/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/watch-live-pence-speaks-u-s-naval-academy-graduation/ (skip to time stamp 24:35)
LTJG (Join to see) were you there at the commencement? And if so, is this what you heard? How did you understand the VPs comment in this regard?
Here is the full of what was said in relation to the phrase that you are attempting to highlight:
"Next is orientation to authority. Nothing I have to explain to those of you sitting before me today. Follow the chain of command without exception. Submit yourselves, as the saying goes, to the authorities that have been placed above you. Trust your superiors, trust your orders, and you'll serve and lead well."
And this is at the tail end of the part on leadership.
Now that we have established that is particular statement was made in the context of leadership, we can actually break it down to what I think that the Vice President was trying to impress upon people.
Let's examine the terminology of "orientation to authority", this is a phrase used as a point in Management and is taught in classes on management. "Orientation to authority" is another name for the cultural value of "power distance." Power distance is the extent to which the lower ranking individuals of a society "accept and expect that power is distributed unequally". (Describes military and civilian hierarchy (chain of command) quite well.)
Then we can lace that into Leadership. To "follow" the chain of command means to follow the rules about who is allowed to make different decisions in an organization.
Bottom line or executive summary - Follow the rules.
http://time.com/4796186/vice-president-mike-pence-naval-academy-graduation-commencement/
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/watch-live-pence-speaks-u-s-naval-academy-graduation/ (skip to time stamp 24:35)
LTJG (Join to see) were you there at the commencement? And if so, is this what you heard? How did you understand the VPs comment in this regard?
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LTJG (Join to see)
Yes I was there. I was graduating. And his speech seemed to turn into a political platform towards the end.
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SSG Robert Webster
LTJG (Join to see) - I would guess that you are talking about the part where he states "...President Donald Trump is the best friend the Armed Forces of the United States will ever have." Yep, it is pretty much political after that.
However, you did not answer my question in regards to how you understood his statement on "orientation to authority" and "Follow the chain of command without exception." In other words - Did you take it as a maxim on leadership, or do you think that it was an allusion to obeying orders (as your earlier answer indicated)?
However, you did not answer my question in regards to how you understood his statement on "orientation to authority" and "Follow the chain of command without exception." In other words - Did you take it as a maxim on leadership, or do you think that it was an allusion to obeying orders (as your earlier answer indicated)?
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
SSG Robert Webster - The phrase was as I wrote it - I specifically didn't put Constitutional in quotes for that reason. Our oath is to the Constitution, not the elected representatives, so I wanted to be clear on that. I don't believe the quote is taken out of context and I don't agree with the "Follow the chain of command without exception."
"Without exception" was an intentional addition to a speech that I'm sure wasn't thrown together at the last minute and was checked and rechecked by numerous writers. That means that the words in it have a purpose. What is the purpose of "without exception" if not to instill the idea into the heads of these up and coming leaders that their chain of command always knows best and always acts in the best interests of nation - "without exception"? Do YOU think that that is a true statement?
"Without exception" was an intentional addition to a speech that I'm sure wasn't thrown together at the last minute and was checked and rechecked by numerous writers. That means that the words in it have a purpose. What is the purpose of "without exception" if not to instill the idea into the heads of these up and coming leaders that their chain of command always knows best and always acts in the best interests of nation - "without exception"? Do YOU think that that is a true statement?
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I don't think "I was only following orders" worked at Nuremberg...
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Saying you're just following orders is not a legal defense to unlawful orders. Also if your orders are to set up a position on a rooftop and that position offers neither concealment nor cover, it would be recommended to use common sense and set up on the top floor so you can complete your mission, you have to adjust to the situation at times.
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