Does fraternization cross branches?

This truly is one of those "Letter of the Law" and "Spirit of the Law" issues.

We all know what the regulations say--no go. But there are moments like this where is it understandable due to pre-existing relationship like my distinguished colleagues have said on this thread.

I have seen and heard of many Officer-Enlisted pairings---married and serious dating. The rating chain and appearance of favoritism (& actual favoritism) really is the crux of it being a show-stopper.

If I remember correctly once she commissions they will either have to marry or end the relationship. If they were married prior to her commissioning then it's fine.

I would make a recommendation that you research this. There is free legal assistance available through your JAG office, which some people will cringe at that word, but I recommend it for 2 reasons:

1. So the Marine will know where he legally stands with it.

2. The Marine can start planning now on if it will take a marriage to make it work.

It is the Marine who should ask this question, and he should first go through his chain of command when asking that question.

Today's military gives thousands of avenues for advice in one place. The Internet will provide you with mountains of answers, you only have to weed out between the legitimate and the bogus.

This is not meant to berate or belittle you in any way, shape or form, but you need to begin learning about all of your resources you have now. FM's, AR's and any other literature you need to begin getting ready for boards, etc. Take distance learning when you can, and maintain great, not marginal, PT scores and height/weight.

The fact that you are asking this question here means 2 things;

1. That you are willing to help a fellow warrior out, and that is one of the greatest qualities of an NCO in my opinion (which you need to prepare yourself for now.

2. You have sought an avenue for answers here to get assistance with the question, which means you already know how to utilize one great resource.

Here is the web site for Military legal assistance:

http://m.military.com/benefits/military-legal-matters/legal-assistance-and-jag/free-legal-assistance.html

Have him follow his chain, and if they cannot answer the question, request to be able to take the question higher.

His ability to treat his chain of command in a respectful and non-threatening manner will go a long way towards a positive outcome to the question.

If someone on this thread is either a JAG officer or has sighted a regulation, follow their advice. I've been out of the military since 2009, so those who are serving still may very well offer better advice.

The issues are "where do they work" and "who leads and who follows?" In my youth, I was taught that a "Sergeant is a Sergeant and a Captain is a Captain" no matter what uniform they are wearing. It has worked well for me, because in today's joint and multi-national environs, it's important to remember that while our rank establishes leadership and followship it also establishes manners and protocol.

"Where do they work" is an important question to ask. If the two of them are part of a joint organization or team; or are on temporary duty to work together on a problem or issue, then yes, it doesn't matter what service they are a part of (or in some cases, whether one's a civilian and the other's an officer or NCO) -- the fraternization rules come into play here. It's important that we military members -- enlisted, NCO, officer -- know where those boundaries are. I'll give you a good example of this:

I had seventeen enlisted Soldiers work with me and my boss, a full Colonel, in the first days of the conversion of the Presidential Palace in downtown Baghdad. They were working in teams of two or three alongside USAID, State Department, Justice Department and Agriculture Department civilians and military personnel from other services who previously were stationed in the DC area. Those Soldiers of mine were their press spokespersons, their media aides, their mouthpieces to the Iraqi people and to the people of the world watching them and their bosses -- in most cases U.S. Ambassadors or members of their senior circles -- make decisions, advise their Iraqi counterparts and working through some tough issues. They got close to those press people -- but my Soldiers, advised by me and two Sergeants Major and a First Sergeant (and each other), kept their composure and kept their urges to after we returned home and off active duty. It was one thing to have dinner with them; it's another thing to be invited to their hotel suites or rooms after duty hours even for a few seconds.

"Where do they work" is important also to "who leads and who follows". Every Soldier had a battle buddy and during my second rotation to Iraq, my battle buddy was a female LTC from Alabama. We worked together, ate dinner and traveled together, but the lines between friendship and more than that were never crossed -- because we knew that Soldiers would follow our leads and eventually we would have more issues than just the two of us "hanging together". Even the drives into town for medical care which could not be performed on base became an issue to deal with socially, morally and because we are guests in Kuwait and Iraq, a religious issue. So "who led"? I was the senior of the two of us and there were many times that another officer or a senior NCO went with us, breaking up the "buddy team" temporarily. You have to consider that when dealing with great friends and good leaders but the appropriateness and "image" of the US Military may be at stake. Now that the two of us are off active duty (and have retired), we can now be as close as we desire to be (hasn't happened...who knows...*smiling*).

In summary, fraternization depends upon three factors: the workplace environs, the potential influence between partners and between those involved in the relationship and those they lead or follow, and the perception or perceived perception that such a relationship may take shape.

Hope that my ramblings helped! Great question!

As 2LT James Montgomery mentioned, it's a pre-existing relationship. There is also that they are "unlikely" to be in the same Chain of Command or report to each other, however.. the USMC has a longstanding "tradition" of defining Frat as "Officers dating Enlisted."

Each Service defines Frat slightly differently (Regs, orders, etc), so what might be considered Frat in the Army isn't necessarily Frat in the Marines/Air Force.

My wife, A former USAR 1LT Nurse, and I are constantly amazed by the number of contestants on "The Amazing Race" TV Show that consistently do themselves in by not reading and comprehending the entire set of instructions they receive for the next leg of the race.
Seriously are you guys really reading and assessing the same question I am? The facts that PFC Has stated are quite clear and incident specific. Most responses are like political responses to direct questions, please lets be clear and simple and respond to the facts of his inquiry. Once again I beg for that rare commodity called common sense to be applied.

UCMJ addresses this issue to ensure that existing and pre-existing relationships do not create opportunities for disharmonious association. Another example, an older Air Force Major (single) was openly seen to be too close to a young Enlisted female on a regular basis...seemingly going beyond merely 'chatting her up" on numerous occasions. The fact she was married did not act as a deterrent. He stepped over the line when his interests peaked to strongly urging this young, impressionable person to meet him at 7:00pm at a civilian drinking establishment to discuss "opportunities." The matter was referred to his installation's Inspector General office. The so-called 'association' ended immediately with both parties held harmless. While all such issues are not always so clearly defined, it's best to avoid such perceptions and always treat associates with professionalism. There's an old adage out there that "perception is reality;" close held to one that states, "where there's smoke, there's fire." Best to avoid both at all times.

Yes, frat does cross branches. The textbook answer is to get married before you commission as an officer. That way you are grandfathered in, and there are no frat issues.

Not sure what regulation it is. But it is DOD so all branches must abide. They must be married within 1 year of commission or else it is fraternization. Even if found out after the fact it is still punishable. Officer will take the brunt of the punishment but both are culpable.

It is not Fraternization if it is a pre-existing relationship already.