Posted on Apr 12, 2015
Does God exist? Or, is there a God?
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What are the best arguments for or against the existence of God?
I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.
Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.
To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.
Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.
To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
God
Religion
Atheism
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 332
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My mother taught me that your religion is a private matter. I think that I will keep to her advice.
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Gods greatest gift was freedom, for love can only be obtained from the freedom to decide what to believe. God doesnt force his will on us but rather lets us choose the path we walk and hopes we choose the path that leads to him. All objections to god are based upon a lack of proof in the scientific sense but this argument is nullified by the fact god values freedom above all else and if this is true why would there be involvement or proof that is easily apparent?
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
Well, SPC (Join to see), if you haven't quite left yet, or when you come back, you seem to have tagged the wrong Nathan Freeman.
The universe could not have come into existence by natural means. There is no reason for anything to exist, let alone the universe as we know it. There is no reason for there to be time, space, matter, energy, or laws of physics.
The calculations referred to do not indicate that we can't exist. I'm pretty sure you know that, and you're just mocking. The calculations indicate that we can't have come into existence spontaneously.
The universe could not have come into existence by natural means. There is no reason for anything to exist, let alone the universe as we know it. There is no reason for there to be time, space, matter, energy, or laws of physics.
The calculations referred to do not indicate that we can't exist. I'm pretty sure you know that, and you're just mocking. The calculations indicate that we can't have come into existence spontaneously.
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1LT (Join to see)
If value is placed upon freedom above all else why would we have scientifically verifiable proof of a god? Verifiable proof in the scientific since would make freedom impossible. We would be unable to choose him if we had proof of his existence. God by definition in most major religions is something that is omnipotent in construct. If something is omnipotent in construct and in turn because of that omnipotence makes you aware of it's existence ignoring or choosing to believe in it would be akin to a child ignoring his parent or guardian. It wouldn't make God go away.
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SPC Nathan Freeman
The point of the post as SPC Henry said, is that we were not created by chance. We were created by an intelligent being for a purpose. This is not unscientific. Science tells us that every cause has an effect. It is reasonable, then, to assume that if something is created, it was made for a purpose. Have you ever created anything for no reason at all? Amusement is a reason for building something. The whole foundation of science is that the universe is orderly and adheres to a set of laws (such as gravity). Without this first postulation, all of science is garbage.
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SPC (Join to see)
SPC Nathan Freeman SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA mocking was not my intent. I was just illustrating the point I made a bit further down of that post.
I don't believe we as a species became what we are merely by chance, though I will say that a degree of randomness is a key part of the process, as indicated by genetic variation and mutation over time (uh-oh, evil-ution!). The functioning of the scientific method does make certain assumptions about the nature of the universe, as you've stated, primarily that the universe is even capable of being understood by people.
I even agree that it SEEMS that animals serve some sort of higher purpose, as they belong to a larger ecosystem, normally in harmony with that system. I apply this same analogy to the universe at large and events in it.
But just because people assign purpose to the universe and events in it, doesn't mean purpose as understood be people is inherent to the universe. Why do you believe it is? Perhaps this is simply a differing preference between us. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
As a side note and not really looking for a response on this one: Proofs do reside in the realm of mathematics, the language of the universe, but science above all else is grounded in empirically verifiable observations.
I don't believe we as a species became what we are merely by chance, though I will say that a degree of randomness is a key part of the process, as indicated by genetic variation and mutation over time (uh-oh, evil-ution!). The functioning of the scientific method does make certain assumptions about the nature of the universe, as you've stated, primarily that the universe is even capable of being understood by people.
I even agree that it SEEMS that animals serve some sort of higher purpose, as they belong to a larger ecosystem, normally in harmony with that system. I apply this same analogy to the universe at large and events in it.
But just because people assign purpose to the universe and events in it, doesn't mean purpose as understood be people is inherent to the universe. Why do you believe it is? Perhaps this is simply a differing preference between us. Your thoughts on this would be appreciated.
As a side note and not really looking for a response on this one: Proofs do reside in the realm of mathematics, the language of the universe, but science above all else is grounded in empirically verifiable observations.
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Watch the movie "God Is Not Dead". The student puts it perfect context that there is a one and true God.
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CPT Carl Kisely
You see, SFC Bobby Brooks, the reason that the god debate had to happen in that movie was it was a fake argument being put forth by the professor. This is known as a straw man argument. Please look that up. And read 1lt Nick's link. :)
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CPT Carl Kisely
Hahahahahahahaha! I asked you to demonstrate a circular, fake, or straw man argument made by an atheist, and all you did was "thumbs down" me. And the reason that is so funny? Because every religious argument, when met with a question, is answered by putting the proverbial head in the sand! Thanks for the demonstration, MAJ!
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CW3 (Join to see)
How many times do we have to go over this Major Ballinger. Just becasue you believe something, has not ever, does not now, nor will it ever make it true. You refuse to accept reality as it stands and accept only the parts of science that fit into your view of the world.
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One of my fav's:
Christianity: The belief that some invisible cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood, and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree to gain knowledge.
...and I still believe.
Christianity: The belief that some invisible cosmic Jewish zombie can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and drink his blood, and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree to gain knowledge.
...and I still believe.
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SPC (Join to see)
LTC Fred Wiske he rose from the dead. what is more zombie like than that (regarding modern definitions of what a zombie is)?
1LT Richard C.
1LT Richard C.
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SPC (Join to see)
Sgt Richard Buckner My comment directly relates to the comment before and neither connotes nor denotes anything regarding the character of the individuals involved in the conversation. I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it fully for that reason.
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LTC Fred Wiske
i didn't detect any disrespect so it's no problem... rising from the dead is not all Jesus did... zombies are called "undead" and not referred to as either truly living creatures nor are they normally described as having anything like benevolent intentions nor positive miraculous powers that not only bring physical healing to mankind, nor offering a cure for man's evil, fallen and sinful condition... Jesus is exclusive among saviors or messiahs in that He does all of these and appears following His resurrection to His disciples as completely physically alive human being, who unlike a zombie has no intentions of attacking, demonizing or harming anyone...
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LTC Fred Wiske
and as a sidebar, it seems that the modern description of a zombie is more akin to the biblical description of a demon, which comes from Hell, than Christ in whom no darkness is at all, and whose origin and destiny are both in Heaven...
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Yes, God exists. Now, if you are looking for absolute, irrefutable, scientific proof that He does, you'll be looking for a long time. For one, God wants our belief in Him to be a matter of faith, the Bible points that out a number of times. For another, any undergraduate science class will tell you that science cannot prove or disprove matters of faith. What I would call "the hand of God" you may call "luck", or "coincidence." Science can no more explain the concept of coincidence than it can answer whether or not God exists.
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Faith is the best argument for God, or any Higher power.
Those that believe in a higher power just have to have faith that there are things that will always be outside of our ability to comprehend as humans.
Also, if you could point to any belief system that says that any God is omnibenevolent, because the Christian and Jewish God is obviously from both Old and New Testament a God that allows people to pay for their sins with his righteous judgment.
Those that believe in a higher power just have to have faith that there are things that will always be outside of our ability to comprehend as humans.
Also, if you could point to any belief system that says that any God is omnibenevolent, because the Christian and Jewish God is obviously from both Old and New Testament a God that allows people to pay for their sins with his righteous judgment.
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LTC (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) Because I don't actually believe that the idea is unproven. There is a lot of stuff that we don't know and I believe that a great mixture of science with some faith in a higher power allows us to gain a higher degree of understanding in the long run.
Maybe the God is the universe, the opening for Genesis sounds a lot like that.
Maybe the God is the universe, the opening for Genesis sounds a lot like that.
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SPC (Join to see)
You believe a lot of things, but there's no why. It just baffles me why people choose to believe because they believe because they believe ad nauseam. I'm not claiming it's wrong. How could one EVER know if it's right or wrong? That's why I don't believe in OP's god. I was hoping you could shed some light on this, hence the badgering. Thanks, LTC (Join to see)
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LTC (Join to see)
SPC (Join to see) The conversation has become a self-licking ice cream cone, but I don't feel as if either of us has gotten irritated with it.
I will just end with faith is the why for me.
I will just end with faith is the why for me.
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Just a thought, if you ever speak to an Atheist, or someone who doesn't believe and you reply back with "I'll pray for you", that's equivalent to throwing meat all over a vegetarian's salad. If you believe they will be saved and wish to pray for them, feel free to do so, but keep it to yourself.
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SrA Edward Vong
Sgt Richard Buckner
I understand Rick. It's usually the context of the way that term is used. I have had discussions with some who responded with "that's what you believe? pfft, I'll be sure to pray for you".
But I also understand when someone is saying it because they genuinely care for the well-being of a person.
I understand Rick. It's usually the context of the way that term is used. I have had discussions with some who responded with "that's what you believe? pfft, I'll be sure to pray for you".
But I also understand when someone is saying it because they genuinely care for the well-being of a person.
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SrA Edward Vong
Sgt Richard Buckner
Rick,
At the end of the day, I feel those that have views (in their own way) as long as they don't have the malicious intent to hurt anybody come together and create a moderation. I respect everybody's views as long as they do not try to hurt anybody.
You have not called me names nor have you disrespected me either, and you want to help build the US and show you genuinely care. You have earned my respect as well sir! *salute*
Ultimately I feel we are all working together to create a better American and a better world in the way we see fit. That being said, I consider myself a moderate leaning left. The left symbolizes that some measures may have to be taken for progression, even if I don't agree with it. Compromising.
I understand where you're coming from though. Different people come from different walks of life. This causes everyone to view the US and the world differently.
Eddie.
Rick,
At the end of the day, I feel those that have views (in their own way) as long as they don't have the malicious intent to hurt anybody come together and create a moderation. I respect everybody's views as long as they do not try to hurt anybody.
You have not called me names nor have you disrespected me either, and you want to help build the US and show you genuinely care. You have earned my respect as well sir! *salute*
Ultimately I feel we are all working together to create a better American and a better world in the way we see fit. That being said, I consider myself a moderate leaning left. The left symbolizes that some measures may have to be taken for progression, even if I don't agree with it. Compromising.
I understand where you're coming from though. Different people come from different walks of life. This causes everyone to view the US and the world differently.
Eddie.
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SSG Stephen Arnold
Why would you be offended by someone responding in accordance with their very existence?
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Does a benevolent, omnipotent, omniscient "God" exist? I think it's very unlikely. I believe religion and a belief in such a being is necessary to soothe the masses in a society. Faith in such a being, a protector, an overseer helps some to get by. To think there is a plan, a higher power, a reason and plan to the randomness of tragedy and death in life every day. It helps a people to get through extended periods of drought, disaster, or other long term societal trauma. The light at the end of the tunnel to ultimately help the species continue. Now do I personally believe in God? No, I think a god is a personally constructed figurative being. Every person who believes in God knows this God to be different because this being is different, tailored to the exact specifications of the persons psyche and subconscious. While I am indeed open to the belief in an omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent being I will not throw my faith out on a whim. I would definitely need proof for or against the existence of a god. I think to believe in a single God is to be closed-minded. There were so many civilizations in existance even before the bible was cobbled together by men. The Romans and Greeks all had variants of each other's gods, many, many gods for almost everything. The Egyptians had a great many gods and so did the Norse. Now, why would there be a belief in many hundreds of gods by many civilizations for thousands of years, then only be one? It just doesn't make sense. If you think about it, all scientific discovery ever would seem like magic or "miracles" (for you religious people reading this) to anyone not familiar with such technology. If we had the technology we have now and went back a thousand years any one of us could be hailed as a god. This is why I think that any deitys formed by ancient civilizations are much more likely based on either extraterrestrial beings or some sort of advanced ascended beings with superior technology. It just makes more sense to me than believing in sky man. Do I have proof? No way! But do I have proof that a single magical being exists and such a being created the universe and everything in it in seven days? Nope. Take from this what you will.
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SPC (Join to see)
TSgt Hunter Logan
I will of course disengage with anyone that requests this of me. This is a social platform and I do assume those present are willing to engage, but I mean not to harass anyone. It's really that easy. I only mean to engage with the willing. I'll respect your requests.
someone note the date and time. . . This is getting to be a habit. Really people. If you don't want to talk to me, just say so. You'll never see me threaten anybody. And if I don't feeling like hearing someone's opinion, I ignore them. Maybe RP needs a block feature.
TL:DR I'll comply. :)
I will of course disengage with anyone that requests this of me. This is a social platform and I do assume those present are willing to engage, but I mean not to harass anyone. It's really that easy. I only mean to engage with the willing. I'll respect your requests.
someone note the date and time. . . This is getting to be a habit. Really people. If you don't want to talk to me, just say so. You'll never see me threaten anybody. And if I don't feeling like hearing someone's opinion, I ignore them. Maybe RP needs a block feature.
TL:DR I'll comply. :)
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SPC (Join to see)
SPC Nathan Freeman I did see some of those posts. I guess we'll leave those conversations in their respective locations.
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SPC Larry Boutwell
lol these are my fav convos.. they never end pretty... ill just say that people used to think the world was flat once too ! winky face high five ! who wants to hit the grog bowl?
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SPC Larry Boutwell
altruist is what i am i do kind thing for others because the world is at times shit and so are the people in it....im pretty sure we all know this to be true... ...not to toot my own horn but today my wife and i (both atheist) watched a guy run outta gas in front of us, he turned on hes hazards and got out of his car.. i offered to help him push the car.. he declined... my wife pulls over... two more people offer and he declines the as well. so my wife and i decide that since he wont take help pushing that we would go and buy a lil gas can and fill it for him. well we get the gas and take it back to him ... but he wasnt there or the car any more lol ..now i have a 3 gallon gas can sitting in my car that i dont know what to do with lol oh well i tryed
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If you believe in God, your God, then YOUR God exists.
Faith in the almighty God and all that.
Be that God, Allah, Jehova, the great Thunderbird, Demeter or Artemis.
Asking for proof that God exists is akin to the early attempts to understand what wind was. They knew it was there, they could feel it and see its effects but could not understand what it was or why it did what it did.
Now, as for the opposite, well...how can I say this...God and its existence is not a matter of empirical evidence, it is a matter of subjective interpretations, faith and a set of beliefs.
Empirical data can yield a fact, that can be posed as proof that something is or is not. Whether something exists or not.
How can I prove that your preference for Vanilla ice cream is wrong? Or how can you prove that I did not see a UFO when I was 11?
Personal beliefs are just that, I don't see the value in trying to proselytize.
Cheers
Faith in the almighty God and all that.
Be that God, Allah, Jehova, the great Thunderbird, Demeter or Artemis.
Asking for proof that God exists is akin to the early attempts to understand what wind was. They knew it was there, they could feel it and see its effects but could not understand what it was or why it did what it did.
Now, as for the opposite, well...how can I say this...God and its existence is not a matter of empirical evidence, it is a matter of subjective interpretations, faith and a set of beliefs.
Empirical data can yield a fact, that can be posed as proof that something is or is not. Whether something exists or not.
How can I prove that your preference for Vanilla ice cream is wrong? Or how can you prove that I did not see a UFO when I was 11?
Personal beliefs are just that, I don't see the value in trying to proselytize.
Cheers
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SPC Nathan Freeman
We are not so powerful as to create a God by simply imagining his existence. That is preposterous.
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