Posted on Apr 12, 2015
SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
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Hand of god
What are the best arguments for or against the existence of God?

I mean an omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent Supreme Being -- the eternally and necessarily extant Creator of the universe.

Atheists, Theists, Agnostics, Polytheists, Pantheists and anyone else are all welcome to weigh in!
I'm not asking what you believe, I'm asking about the best arguments for or against the existence of God.

To clarify omnibenevolence, I mean simply 'perfect goodness,' not "the quality of being kind and generous towards everyone and everything." CH (CPT) (Join to see)
Posted in these groups: Sistine chapel image of god GodWorld religions 2 ReligionAtheism symbol Atheism
Edited 9 y ago
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CW2 Bde Ew Tech
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In my discussions if have come across this. There if faith based and proof based. The two cannot understand each other. Atheists do not view the bible (and other holy books) as proof for anything as it is not a peer reviewed source and the stuff in it is not reproduceable. Theists believe without proof and find the bible (or other holy book) as all the rpoof they need.
It is this one thing that divides and canot be overcome. Atheists can throw all the proof (or lack of) at a theist and they can just say "because god made it that way"
"You can't prove god exists" "Well, you can't prove he doesn't exist" "I don't have to prove he doesn't exist."
As for an actual answer to the question - there is no proof. Claims for existence must be backed by proof. Many things in the books described as God's hand or breath or whatever can now be answered by things as thunder, lightning, earthquakes, etc... This is one of my favorite discussions and I do get drawn into it easily, but it is futile. Theists cannot think like atheists, and vice versa. Faith is powerful, but unproven.
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PFC Chris Hemingway
PFC Chris Hemingway
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@SSG Jeffrey Carroll Funny then you don't understand pagans. While at community college I was invited to be part of a religious discussion and debate there also was a Baptist a catholic an atheist and two others that I don't remember. People not on the panel asked us questions and we did our best to answer one of the professors tried to use some theory he called just cause right cause to defend that God created the Big Bang against the athiest. He wouldn't stop pestering the poor guy so I looked at the professor and said by his reasoning what created god he said God created himself and I said that by his reasoning everything has a cause for creation therefore God was created by something else. Now again I will say I'm a pagan theist however I will also point out some of the worlds greatest philosophers were pagan and unlike most of the Christian philosophers they didn't argue how many angels could you fit on the head of a pin and yes that argument existed. So yes we can deny our religion as easily as accept it because our religion teaches us to think for ourselves and true freedom of choice
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SGT William Howell
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Edited 9 y ago
Not being a Physics guy I was watching a documentary on the beginning of the universe to try some learnin'. Of course there is no mention of God. (Which is cool, some scientist do not believe God and science can exist together. I don't judge. I just wanted to know more about the Big Bang that started it all). So this guy who seems really smart starts telling about that there is nothing and then these particles keep getting pulled in together and it gets denser and denser till it finally can't take it any more and BOOOM! Big Bang!

That is where he lost me. Where did these particles come from? I think i missed something. It is like reading a book starting in the middle. Not once did anybody theorize where the particles came from. It was just accepted they were there. How can you say Big Bang disproves there is a God and yet you just have faith that particles came from nothing?

Is there anybody that can shed some light on this for me? Dumb it down for me, remember I was a MP.
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SGT William Howell
SGT William Howell
9 y
I am not claiming Jesus, Mohammad, Tooth Fairy, or Elvis created the heavens. What I am saying is that the same faith that people put into the Creation Theory is the same type of faith used by those that believe in the Big Bang Theory. One may be from the hills of Kentucky and one may have a PhD from Harvard, but neither can prove where the beginning is and how it got started.

Something from Nothing is a good title, because no matter how anybody words it there has to be faith that what you believe is correct. I just watched 2 hours of 13 scientist that the BBC called some of the greatest minds say that Big Bang is and is not correct, that Hubble was lazy in his theory, and they are all taking educated guesses as to how the universe started.

In the end, it does not matter, but humans are always questing for more. It is what put men on ships and sailed to the Americas, it is what convinced people to get in a missile and leave the earth behind, and it is why we read from the front to the back of a book.
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Okay, so one last time. Faith requires faith, science requires facts. Science absolutely, totally and completely is without faith. It deals with that is, faith delas with you want to be. You speak as if you know the outcome, yes, RIGHT NOW science doesn't have all the answers, but against the best efforts of all the true believers in the history of mankind, science has dragged the human race kicking and screaming into the 21st century. Science has provided you with EVERYTHING you have. SCIENCE and science alone has given you answers to your questions. Religiona nd faith and belief ahs just made you feel better about situations.

Again, no one is disputing that science can't explain what came before the big bang, that's why we built the LHC. To keep answering those questions, because the answer of "BECAUSE MAGIC" doesn't work for anyone who can think for themselves.

In the end it literally matters. The actual truth matters more than anything. Why? because the pursuit of knowledge improves the lives of everyone that is part of the human race, not just a nice little section that agrees with what you believe. It is the ONLY thing on this planet doing anything to move us forward and solve our problems.

Just because you don't understand or don't angree with the facts does not mean they are not true.

Introspection, try it.
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SGT William Howell
SGT William Howell
9 y
OK! So my question is simple. What was before this Big Bang and what caused this? Since you can't answer that with science (at this time) you have to base it off a unproved theory and this unproved theory is the basis of before Big Bang. You have done science past that point that has proved your theory to the point of the Bang, but what if down the road this unproved theory gets disproved? Then everything past that is wrong, so why do it? Because you have faith that it is correct assumption.

What would happen if somebody proves that the universe is not moving away from an origin point, but toward something at the opposite end?

It would be like doing a mathematical problem, (you know the one where you need 10 chalkboards) you solve it. Then I walk up and throw a 1 on the front of it and that make it all wrong. You believe that I won't do that, because you have faith you already have all the correct information to make your formula, but you are not 100% sure because the start of your problem is based off a unproven theory. You are 100% sure you math is right and it will be, right up to the point that I add something to the beginning that you were not expecting. That is faith.

Chief, I am nowhere near a smart as you, probably would be considered functionally retarded if I was standing next to you. I am by no means trying to convert you to anything and I hate people that try and do that to others. Philosophy and science never jive in the history of ever (Starting at Big Bang since you are saying there was not time before that). Just putting stuff out in there the on way I think. It usually comes with large amounts of beer. I do respect what you are saying and I respect you as a person for always responding respectfully to me.
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SGT William Howell - Sorry, I have been rather busy so this response is way late. As for what was before the big bang, valid question, right now, I don't know, there are a couple leading theories but nowhere near the point where they are verifiable. What I do know is that like every answer ever discovered, it will be science that figures it out.

Everything else you are talking about is the definition of the scientific method, that is literally how we got to this point. Einstein walked in and added that 1 to Newtons theory of gravity, and boom, general theory of relativity was born. Not a single scientist is 100% certain of anything, because of the Heisneberg uncertainty principle and not because of doubt or faith, but because the laws of the universe mandate we can't.

faith is not what you are talking about, faith is absence of questioning. if you question a belief you can't have faith in it. it is blind and it has to be an absolute, otherwise it leads to doubt because reality nowhere allows there to be absolutist ideologies.

You don't give yourself enough credit, don't doubt your intelligence, that is the main reason I debate this topic, because I know you are smart enough to get past this pre modern belief system and advance to a state where your life and knowledge you gain is based in reality not belief or faith
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SPC Samantha Greenlee
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I had an angel lift me off of a four wheeler when the steering went out and was heading for a steep ditch. I was a young child and was riding on the back of a four wheeler, a friend was driving. I was holding a water balloon and we were going to throw it on the boys. For some reason I wanted to look down and when I did this, this put me in perfect position for the angel to pull me off of the four wheeler. When I realized what happened I was standing up and watched the four wheeler head straight for the ditch with my friend on it, unable to turn it and went straight into the ditch. I don’t know why I have Godly intervention that day. Maybe I would have lost a limb, brain damage, died. Ill find out one day when I die and go to heaven. This is my testimony.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
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St. Augustine had some of the best arguments for the existence of God. Regardless of what anyone says, I have no doubt about God's existence.
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SGM Retired
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Saint Augustine is a personal favorite of mine. He said, "God make me chaste, but not just yet." As a 60-year old, I can relate to the not just yet part.
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SSG S2 Intelligence Ncoic
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No. There just isn't a need for a God in the universe. Until I see verifiable evidence, I won't believe in Him/Her/It.
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SGT Anthony Bussing
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until god sits down with me...and PROVES he is real...not a chance in hell will I believe...
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SPC Alejandro Martinez
SPC Alejandro Martinez
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God does not force us to believe. It is our choice. You have chosen to not believe. End of story.
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SGT Anthony Bussing
SGT Anthony Bussing
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pretty much dead on...
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SFC Jason Hodge
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“The first gulp from the glass of natural sciences will turn you into an atheist, but at the bottom of the glass God is waiting for you.”–Werner Heisenberg, who was awarded the 1932 Nobel Prize in Physics for the creation of quantum mechanics (which is absolutely crucial to modern science). Some of the most brilliant scientific minds in the history of the human race have come to the scientific conclusion that God exists. I would suggest that if you are in doubt, just ask him to come into your life, you will be suprised of the outcome.
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I am going to assume you put that quote up to troll people, because what he was talking about and what he meant about the bottom of the glass doesn't support the argument for a god...seriously...
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SGT Kevin Brown
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I was a former Atheist who converted to Catholicism in Afghanistan in 2005. Obviously that identifies that I believe in God, but my reasons for converting may better answer your actual question. I warn you, this answer is pretty long winded, but I provide examples of how science proved to me the existence of God.

While I claimed Atheism, I spent hours studying Christianity, Islam, Judaism, Paganism and numerous other religions, under the guise that I was simply trying to gain an understanding of why people believe in what they believe. In all reality I was spiteful. Having grown up in a strict fundamentalist Christian household, I became angry with Christianity and God, especially after being told time and time again that I needed to take answers to my questions on faith (without any valid evidence). This caused me to turn my back on Christianity, God and anything related and sent me on a horrible path of trying to disprove as much of Christianity (and other religions) as possible.

Atheists, theists and the like all have the same questions: "Why are we here", "How did we get here" and so on and so on. Some look towards the Bible, Koran or Torah, others look for scientific evidence of our creation and yet others ignore the question in order to obtain the bliss of not having to worry or think about it. Even though I was hell bent on destroying Christianity, I still wanted answers to life's biggest questions. I studied Hawkins, Darwin and many journals, books and articles (from a big bang or non-creationist point of view). Having gained this "knowledge" about life and everything about it, my pompous 20 year old "know it all" self felt highly obligated to share that knowledge and try to prove wrong a SME in the field of creationism, our Catholic Chaplin.

We had an equal understanding going in to our many, many, many conversations and took each other up on our challenges (reading suggested material, articles and so on). It was testing those readings, his answers and our conversations utilizing the scientific method and critical thinking and logic that inevitably won me over to converting to Catholicism. Many would look at that and scoff (as I would have in the past), however, it is true. Below are a few examples of the evidence I found in the existence of God.

* Big Bang Theory - I still support the Big Bang Theory and believe that the universe erupted in a split second in a mass explosion that formed out universe. With that said, the probability of such event having taken place spontaneously and without cause (cause and effect) or happening again is so astronomical (no pun intended) that it is nearly statistically impossible. When taking holy scripture contextually (as apposed to literally), a cause is given by the command of a creator, "Let there be light". If you notice the words uttered (or at least recorded thousands of years ago) where not let there be a universe, or let there be planets, or anything of that matter, it was exactly that, "Let there be light". The Big Bang suggests that out of nothing (darkness) the universe exploded outwards (light) instantly at a very powerful rate in all directions and everything began taking form.

* Time, space and other dimensions - Time is a man made measuring tool utilized to keep order, identify periods of existence and so on. Though many argue that time is the only relevant thing out there, I argue that time is irrelevant. What I mean by that is without time or the concept of time, we can find logic in those theories which exist today that our universe is merely a one of an unlimited number of universes which exist simultaneously together. This thought is relatively new to the scientific community, however, many religions have adapted this belief for thousands and thousands of years. When correlated with the big bang theory, this theory identifies that not only was our universe "poofed" into existence, but all that is, was as well. In Christianity these other universes have been identified as heaven, hell, purgatory, paradise, limbo and so on.

* Statistical Probability - Most astronomers will tell you that is almost statistically impossible that we are the only life in the universe and though we cannot prove other life exists (yet), we cannot rule it out or disprove it either (sounds like a familiar argument). Whether it be Vulcan, God or ET, it doesn't matter. The statistical probability that something bigger, more powerful and supreme to us existing in the universe(s) is astronomically high (again no pun intended). That doesn't prove that God exists, but it does provide the strong probability that we are not the highest form of intelligence in the universe or any other and that something beyond our level of comprehension most likely exists somewhere.

I have many more examples and theories that led me to Catholicism and this is a subject I study and test still to this day. To prevent me from writing a book via Rally Point I will keep this list somewhat short. As far as your question regarding Gods omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent and omnibenevolent existence (an argument I regularly utilized as an Atheist to try and dispel aspects of the Christian God), I have a few argumentative statements.

The first is related to the aspects of God being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. For your best answer, please review my three examples above (the big bang theory, time, space and dimensions and statistical probability). To sum it up, how these things are possible is beyond our level of comprehension, just like how the American electoral system is beyond the comprehension of a star fish.

Now for Omnibenevolence. God is good. As far as you and I define good, he is a vengeful, jealous, sadistic being that could give two sh$#s less about humans (he doesn't stop someone from dying of cancer or stop an earthquake from taking the lives of thousands of people and he wants to be worshiped on top of it). With that said, God is good. What I mean by that is God is what is good, not yours or my definition of what good is (please refer to the statement regarding our inability to comprehend certain things). This does not need to be taken on faith, because faith is excepting another mans interpretation of God and what is good. God did not say "I Am because man says I am", he said "I Am".

Now similar arguments to mine have been shot down time and time again, usually under the rebuttal of accepting such things as faith, blind faith or my favorite, willful/blissful ignorance. I say again, like I said above, I continue to study, test and try to prove wrong all theories (scientific method) I have mentioned, other theories I have not, new theories and God himself in order to gain the greatest understanding possible for myself. If you are not willing to take the time to do the same you either will not believe what others have found, you are no looking for answers in the first place (like my vengeful misguided need to disprove Christians out of the hatred and anger I had for family and the answers given by he church) or you choose to believe them....on faith.
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SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
SPC Elijah J. Henry, MBA
9 y
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, SGT Kevin Brown.
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LTC David Stender
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Is there a God; pretty heavy question. Well either there is a God who orchestrates the universe or it is all random chance. So, it took 40 years to create a working computer that is continually improved each year by thousands of experts. Your body and mind work similar yet better than computers. Logically, I can't accept this as random chance and openly profess my Christian belief in God.
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We build computers to try and work like our brains, not the other way around. And both of which are extremely poorly made with inferior pieces to other species with a longevity that doesn't do our capabilities any favors. Not exactly the being I would create if I were in charge.
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SFC A.M. Drake
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taking into consideration all those that are headed to an eternity in hell or heaven, I rather like the idea of an eternity in hell. Far better company.
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SFC A.M. Drake
SFC A.M. Drake
7 y
Really Justin? Who says you're going to see anyone in hell but yourself?
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in that case, I will be surrounded by smartest, best looking people I know.
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SFC A.M. Drake
SFC A.M. Drake
7 y
Unbelievable!!
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