Posted on Feb 23, 2017
Does openly and aggressively berating or insulting people who voted for Hillary or Trump warrant an Article 134 violation under UCMJ?
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*First Edit*
There seems to be some misunderstanding: the nature of my question isn't about disrespecting or defying the POTUS, it's about when service members berate, insult or lash out at civilians, friends, peers or family members on social media or otherwise, simply because they voted for the opposite candidate.
*Second Edit*
Also, to clarify, I believe the behavior in question is wrong. I think some folks interpreted my question as asking for justification to be a jerk, but that couldn't be further from the case. I just wanted to generate discussion about people's opinions regarding whether being aggressive or hateful towards voters because of their choice was just being a crappy person, or a legitimate punitive breach of military bearing and discipline.
When President Obama won, there was a deluge of complaints, the birther movement, a different brand of "Not my president." Now that President Trump has won office, there's similar sentiment. On either side, there is a lot of aggression being thrown around. Do you feel Service Members have a higher responsibility to be respectful of the American voters, regardless of their choice?
Respect of the POTUS is a given, we're expected, as service members, to render that. My question is more in line with respecting the fellow Americans that voted; it seems antithetical to me to be aggressive and hurtful to fellow Americans, especially those that have dissenting opinions from ours, for exercising one of the fundamental rights we swore to uphold and defend.
There seems to be some misunderstanding: the nature of my question isn't about disrespecting or defying the POTUS, it's about when service members berate, insult or lash out at civilians, friends, peers or family members on social media or otherwise, simply because they voted for the opposite candidate.
*Second Edit*
Also, to clarify, I believe the behavior in question is wrong. I think some folks interpreted my question as asking for justification to be a jerk, but that couldn't be further from the case. I just wanted to generate discussion about people's opinions regarding whether being aggressive or hateful towards voters because of their choice was just being a crappy person, or a legitimate punitive breach of military bearing and discipline.
When President Obama won, there was a deluge of complaints, the birther movement, a different brand of "Not my president." Now that President Trump has won office, there's similar sentiment. On either side, there is a lot of aggression being thrown around. Do you feel Service Members have a higher responsibility to be respectful of the American voters, regardless of their choice?
Respect of the POTUS is a given, we're expected, as service members, to render that. My question is more in line with respecting the fellow Americans that voted; it seems antithetical to me to be aggressive and hurtful to fellow Americans, especially those that have dissenting opinions from ours, for exercising one of the fundamental rights we swore to uphold and defend.
Election 2016
UCMJ
Leadership
Character
Office of the President (POTUS)
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 205
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Back in the day, if social media was available as it is today, and one or more of my soldiers was behaving as you described, I would counsel them to stop. If it continued, I would follow the required disciplinary actions, regardless of their political leanings. It is conduct unbecoming, pure and simple. Soldiers are supposed to conduct themselves professionally and as much as possible, apolitically.
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Just my opinion but.....I think the UCMJ should be used to protect the service....prevent people from bringing disgrace to the uniform..... a line has to be drawn somewhere .... we swear to uphold and protect the Constitution.....which guarantees freedom of speech..... as long as the tirade does not bring the service into disrespect ....is a personal statement ....it should be permitted even if you disagree with it.....I have known racists ( both black and white) while in the service.... and as long as they kept their views out of the service....out of uniform.....I just went the other way....associated with other people
This could be taken to a ridiculous extreme where we punish someone for picking their nose while in uniform.... Lets not curtail personal freedom to a point where we lose the very freedom of expression .....even expression we disagree with..... that the Constitution gives us...... You want to burn the flag in civilian clothes...fine.....do it in uniform....NOT ALLOWED
This could be taken to a ridiculous extreme where we punish someone for picking their nose while in uniform.... Lets not curtail personal freedom to a point where we lose the very freedom of expression .....even expression we disagree with..... that the Constitution gives us...... You want to burn the flag in civilian clothes...fine.....do it in uniform....NOT ALLOWED
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I think we need to quit worrying about offending people. We are raising a generation of young people with the false reality that they have a legitimate beef against people who happen to offend them. I think we have an obligation to speak truth. Period. If someone is offended by truth, get over it. The military needs to resist this nonsense.
I do not condone harassment, but I went into the Marine Corps to become a warfighter. Not to engage in PC conversations. Many of the men I served with were crude, profane, and loud. Not many of them joined me in church on Sundays. But I loved my brothers. The main concern of this military is to be able to propagate a winning war and maintaining our readiness. I wish all the energy, time and money that is spent on sensitivity training would be directed into saving lives and winning wars. Offended people weaken this country.
I do not condone harassment, but I went into the Marine Corps to become a warfighter. Not to engage in PC conversations. Many of the men I served with were crude, profane, and loud. Not many of them joined me in church on Sundays. But I loved my brothers. The main concern of this military is to be able to propagate a winning war and maintaining our readiness. I wish all the energy, time and money that is spent on sensitivity training would be directed into saving lives and winning wars. Offended people weaken this country.
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SGT Brianna MacKinnon
As a former Field Artillery Surveyor I think I would have explained to the Honorable Congressman that as Guam is an Island and not a ship it can't tip over, capsize and then sink to the bottom of the Ocean. I might have also mentioned that is also why D.C. which was built on a swamp has not sunk below ground due to the heavy weight of Congressional matters discussed there.
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SPC Brian Aranda
I think you're off the mark, it's not about being PC, it's about being respectful and acting with Military Bearing.
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Capt Michael Brown
SPC Brian Aranda - We both hit the mark SPC. Discipline and bearing should be the issue here. No matter what the subject. Period. Regardless of topic, the SSG is looking support when he apparently has a trouble with discipline. The situation should have been the SSG walks in the room and says, "Knock all that crap off!" and they do.
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To answer your question SSG Jim Beverly YES, but then again it is all about perception what was said. I had a personal experience where someone (superior to me, in my direct chain of command) asked, "You're not one of those TRUMP supporters are you!?" The first thing that came to my mind, "Ma'am/Sir, I am a supporter of the Commander in Chief, whoever they are." I left it at that. There is a huge difference when political opinions are shared with family and friends, and when political opinions are shared in the workplace. Let alone being on post, in uniform, with other SMs.
Its always a great idea to tread lightly and remain politically neutral when you are a SM. Active/Reserve/Guard.
Its always a great idea to tread lightly and remain politically neutral when you are a SM. Active/Reserve/Guard.
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SSG Jim Beverly
Agreed, sir. It's not a matter of who we supported in the election, it's more about how we treat those that may have supported the opposite. My intention with this post wasn't to demonize or polarize those in the service for exercising their right to vote, it was to remind those that may have chosen otherwise that an easy misconception about the democracy that America is, is in fact, a democracy. We swore our lives to defend it, and I have seen some hostile, aggressive and downright mean chatter, from fellow service members, towards people (both brothers/sisters in arms and civilians) who voted differently. That is wrong, I feel. We defend freedom, choice and the right to believe what you will. To berate, insult or attack anyone for voting for the person you didn't, is the absolute epitome of tyranny and the very thing our Army, organization and country was founded to combat.
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I like the second edit. While I'm NO Obama fan, and wasn't a Clinton fan, I am reminded of a buddy whose men were talking trash about Clinton, and he said "I am appreciate how you feel, but if you act on that, I'll have to kill YOU, as it is my duty to protect the President." That cooled their ardor, somewhat There it is. We don't have to agree with them, and you can have your own feelings, but it is better to keep them to yourself. And at the next election vote for someone else. That's how we do it. I have had to remind some civilian acquaintances of the same thing of late.
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After reading many of the comments here I have come to the conclusion that this discussion took many tracks off the main line. In our great country, we are allowed to support or not support different political parties, persons, and ideas. But, just because we support one and not the other, that does not give us the right to bash, berate, and aggressively speak ill of supporters of another. I do not fully agree with any one party, politician, representative or POTUS. I also don't always fully agree with people who proclaim to be of the same party, faith, race, branch, etc as me. We have the right to believe and speak freely, however, that does not give us the right to become total jerks. It is called common respect. In the military, they teach us that respect isn't always earned. Sometimes it is given because of position or rank/grade. Common respect means that you respect people just because it's the right thing to do. If you don't agree, don't spew/vomit all over their idea. As they say in one of the groups for my local community, "just scroll on by". No need to comment, post or share.
As for raising to Art 134 level. I would say did the servicemember bring discredit upon the service by their actions? If so, yes. It is worthy of an Art 15 being charged under Art 134.
I hope this helps with your thought.
As for raising to Art 134 level. I would say did the servicemember bring discredit upon the service by their actions? If so, yes. It is worthy of an Art 15 being charged under Art 134.
I hope this helps with your thought.
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Free speech is just that. However, you can't libel or slander with the intent to hurt or damage. You can say things like "In my opinion he is a crook" because you are offering an opinion. Having said all that, I think it is in bad form to berate someone just because they don't agree with you.
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Jim I believe that unless you can control your emotions, and know the person you will be talking to can control theirs it is a bad idea. I would recommend never discussing politics or religion unless there is a yes answer to the statement above. I have friends on both side of the issue. Some I know I can discuss anything and not loose a friendship. Others I just have to listen and keep quiet because anything that I say will start a war of words that know one will win.
America is all about the right to have your own opinion without being vilified. However there are some groups that do not agree with free speech if your opinion is contrary to theirs.
I do feel that if my rights need to be defended I will definitely stand up for them without being overly aggressive unless the situation calls for it to protect myself. It seems that in todays climate it is becoming more and more necessary to stand up for your rights.
I hope my rambling hasn't confused the issue. Thanks for posting.
Last observation. After reading the comments to this discussion I feel extremely proud of our brotherhood, and the thoughtful comments that have been made. GOD Bless our men and women in service to our country.
America is all about the right to have your own opinion without being vilified. However there are some groups that do not agree with free speech if your opinion is contrary to theirs.
I do feel that if my rights need to be defended I will definitely stand up for them without being overly aggressive unless the situation calls for it to protect myself. It seems that in todays climate it is becoming more and more necessary to stand up for your rights.
I hope my rambling hasn't confused the issue. Thanks for posting.
Last observation. After reading the comments to this discussion I feel extremely proud of our brotherhood, and the thoughtful comments that have been made. GOD Bless our men and women in service to our country.
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SP5 Dave (Shotgun) Shockley
Activists demand action and answers from City Council
Civil-liberty attorneys have called on the city and state officials to investigate the preparation and conduct of local, regional and state police at the rally.
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Absolutely. Three things that are not aired in military in open forum. Politics; Race; Religion
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CWO2 James Mathews
Such has been a rule since the days of the British Cruisers under sail, long before the US became a nation. It was the law then and is the law now, whether on the books or not!!!
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People reported me cause they didn't like what I said about Trump, but guess what the same people who reported me are the same people who disrespected Obama when he was President. They are also the same people who said they wouldn't follow any orders Obama gave. Majority of my unit supports Trump I however supported Hillary and now I'm public enemy number one.
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SPC Brian Aranda
It's always a good idea to keep your political and personal views private until you know the audience you are revealing them to.
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