Posted on Feb 23, 2017
Does openly and aggressively berating or insulting people who voted for Hillary or Trump warrant an Article 134 violation under UCMJ?
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*First Edit*
There seems to be some misunderstanding: the nature of my question isn't about disrespecting or defying the POTUS, it's about when service members berate, insult or lash out at civilians, friends, peers or family members on social media or otherwise, simply because they voted for the opposite candidate.
*Second Edit*
Also, to clarify, I believe the behavior in question is wrong. I think some folks interpreted my question as asking for justification to be a jerk, but that couldn't be further from the case. I just wanted to generate discussion about people's opinions regarding whether being aggressive or hateful towards voters because of their choice was just being a crappy person, or a legitimate punitive breach of military bearing and discipline.
When President Obama won, there was a deluge of complaints, the birther movement, a different brand of "Not my president." Now that President Trump has won office, there's similar sentiment. On either side, there is a lot of aggression being thrown around. Do you feel Service Members have a higher responsibility to be respectful of the American voters, regardless of their choice?
Respect of the POTUS is a given, we're expected, as service members, to render that. My question is more in line with respecting the fellow Americans that voted; it seems antithetical to me to be aggressive and hurtful to fellow Americans, especially those that have dissenting opinions from ours, for exercising one of the fundamental rights we swore to uphold and defend.
There seems to be some misunderstanding: the nature of my question isn't about disrespecting or defying the POTUS, it's about when service members berate, insult or lash out at civilians, friends, peers or family members on social media or otherwise, simply because they voted for the opposite candidate.
*Second Edit*
Also, to clarify, I believe the behavior in question is wrong. I think some folks interpreted my question as asking for justification to be a jerk, but that couldn't be further from the case. I just wanted to generate discussion about people's opinions regarding whether being aggressive or hateful towards voters because of their choice was just being a crappy person, or a legitimate punitive breach of military bearing and discipline.
When President Obama won, there was a deluge of complaints, the birther movement, a different brand of "Not my president." Now that President Trump has won office, there's similar sentiment. On either side, there is a lot of aggression being thrown around. Do you feel Service Members have a higher responsibility to be respectful of the American voters, regardless of their choice?
Respect of the POTUS is a given, we're expected, as service members, to render that. My question is more in line with respecting the fellow Americans that voted; it seems antithetical to me to be aggressive and hurtful to fellow Americans, especially those that have dissenting opinions from ours, for exercising one of the fundamental rights we swore to uphold and defend.
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 205
No! We still enjoy the freedom of speech, with a few stipulations. Is the SM in uniform? Is the SM using government resources for the action? Would it be clear to a reasonable person that the statements of the SM are not representative of the military? I believe SMs should be politically active. It is our civic duty. I believe that political discourse should be respectful but disrespectful comments should not be illegal.
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Chris Pinterich
We are soldiers, even when not wearing the uniform. Our conduct and bearing should be the same in both situations. We have the right to use whichever words we want, as is our right. But, to be demeaning and hurtful and attack others is not proper behavior of a member of our armed forces.
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SSG (Join to see)
I agree. However, I think there is an important distinction between improper and illegal.
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I joined in the reagan era and 95%of the time you never heard or saw what others thought about politics. Granted this back before cell phones and social media but for the most part no one really cared at least none that I knew about. I didn't hide my disgust with the GOP even back in those days but we didn't have the soap box mentality that everyone has theses days, those that were close to me knew how I felt that was enough.
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I like this question, but it brings up problems that have never really been answered in the first place. This isn't about party, votes or having diverse opinions. It is about command climate and work environment. It sounds simple but it's not. It is the same problem with any recognised subgroup, by gender, ethnicity or culture. What it comes down to is "I love my country, I love my God, I lovey family, I choose to vote based on my values. Why does that make me 'more right than the soldier or sailor beside me? If I am free to believe and worship and love, why aren't they? This is Animal Farm..."some pigs are better than others"...No they are not. We are all equal pigs. So when it comes to berating a person about there political choices what does that tell everyone? It says that this place has a "preferred political view.". That's great if I agree, but, what if I don't? Does being in a majority in a unit give the right to form an unofficial political philosophy for all? Public berating is a form of punishment. It is humiliation. That's kind of a no brainier. We don't berate people for doing what we want do we? This is where we need to look at what berating does to the people around you? The answer is related to the problem of sexual harrassment and descrimanation. When ever I go to a class, training or a talk by the CO on harrassment, the statement always seems to change from men need to stop this which is abandoned by mutual acknowledgement, "we know that....of course everybody should be treated with dignity to more of a blame oriented, "all you have to do is tell us." Cause if you only told us, we could do something about it. Thats not the problem. The problem is "Why aren't you somebody who I could tell about what's going on?" Harassment of wen is a mens problem, not a woman's problem. What,is we should tell the shooting victims to make they crazy guy stop pulling the trigger? Why should the fix be, tell the victim of harrassment to say something to make them stop? Why should the guy who has wrongly been singled out for berating due to a political view be expected to "suck it up buttercup.?" If you treat me like that over my political choices, which I am entitled to have and exercise just as you are, then how can I trust you not to use what I tell you against me when I have a big problem and I need help?". Of course you all say, I would always help. I would never... It's to late, your message has been sent. My trust was blown when you chose to berate me in public to satisfy your political confidence. I may not have minded when it happened. All in fun right? but then I didn't have my heart ripped out by a dear John letter then like I do now. And you can't go back and undo it. If you are making crude comments about women or comparing Sargent Hottie to the St Pauli Girl poster on the wall, it may not bother then, but after some Bucketthead has been harrassing me or worse because I won't date them, and, making my life hell because of gender, now those things don't seem so tolerable anymore. So it boils down to what kind of a leader you want to be, someone who keeps the door open for when you need them or somebody precieved as a person who is only there for the right party? If it's as simple as, leave the party Bible at home so the guy beside me doesn't feel alienated, then we can count on each other after our heart is ripped out and I want to swallow a bullet after we come back because war and combat will not leave me be. Preception may not be actual reality, but it is all we have to go on. Good leadership means being able to take care of the whole division, by not putting opinionated walls between us or burning Bridges over a vote.
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I think that common sense would rule here. Expressing disagreement in a civil manner shouldn't be a problem, but sometimes such discussions can come to in-your-face shouting matches, or more. That's when would become a disciplinary matter......When I was a young Sailor, we were too damn buys doing our jobs to worry about such things.
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It's a fine line because berating or insulting the voters inevitably leads to the one that was, or was not, voted for. If that can be avoided, there's no violation.
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SSG,
Let me start off by saying I completely agree with your sentiment. People exercising their right to vote should never be targeted for their choice simply because is weas not how someone else voted - if we all voted the same, we wouldn't have to vote. The freedom to have our own ideas and opinions is what this country is founded on, I believe.
As far as the legal part of your question:
I would say you could certainly have a case that it is punishable under Article 134, if you can reasonably demonstrate that the behavior is damaging to the overall welfare or readiness of either the victim's (one being defamed) or the offender's (one defaming) unit(s). You could also try telling the individual to stop, and if they refuse to, then it's a failure to follow instruction - infinitely easier to stick paper on, if that's your goal. Getting this accomplished will, in large part, depend on the support of your commander (or his commander, if the offender is your commander).
As a final note, as a leader, I would hope you know better than to go around trying to throw the book at people because you don't like how they speak to each other. There are other methods for addressing this sort of behavior - most involve you standing up and saying that you, personally, will not tolerate your soldiers berating others, and that their views on each other's politics are not welcome. You may come away from that conversation with egg on your face - but a botched attempt to UCMJ someone could be a career killer for you as much as for someone else, and will likely lose you the respect of your Joes, and/or your superiors.
Hope this helped,
2LT Crowley
Let me start off by saying I completely agree with your sentiment. People exercising their right to vote should never be targeted for their choice simply because is weas not how someone else voted - if we all voted the same, we wouldn't have to vote. The freedom to have our own ideas and opinions is what this country is founded on, I believe.
As far as the legal part of your question:
I would say you could certainly have a case that it is punishable under Article 134, if you can reasonably demonstrate that the behavior is damaging to the overall welfare or readiness of either the victim's (one being defamed) or the offender's (one defaming) unit(s). You could also try telling the individual to stop, and if they refuse to, then it's a failure to follow instruction - infinitely easier to stick paper on, if that's your goal. Getting this accomplished will, in large part, depend on the support of your commander (or his commander, if the offender is your commander).
As a final note, as a leader, I would hope you know better than to go around trying to throw the book at people because you don't like how they speak to each other. There are other methods for addressing this sort of behavior - most involve you standing up and saying that you, personally, will not tolerate your soldiers berating others, and that their views on each other's politics are not welcome. You may come away from that conversation with egg on your face - but a botched attempt to UCMJ someone could be a career killer for you as much as for someone else, and will likely lose you the respect of your Joes, and/or your superiors.
Hope this helped,
2LT Crowley
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I never discuss politics at work in my job as a DoD Civilian. It's not the place. If people try to I'm polite but then try and direct the conversation to work, or sports.
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I don't even find that type of behavior acceptable as a civilian so I certainly wouldn't find it acceptable for a servicemen. If it takes an article 134 to impress that on one then I can see its use. Show some dignity while in uniform or when you use a military designation on any publication. I don't like social media sites for any type of military expression at all. You want to identify yourself by name, fine. Making those types of comments or involving yourself on social media in conversations of that nature, I don't find respectful of your uniform or service.
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