Posted on Oct 11, 2015
Capt Richard I P.
121K
2.11K
680
230
229
1
7986531f
There's been a lot of debate about firearms and firearm ownership recently. I've been a part of a lot of it. I think one thing that is achingly necessary is some close reading of the Second Amendment itself. I slapped together a powerpoint for my sister a few years ago on the topic, and will post the text here with the title slide as an image (because it outlines the argument.)

2. Inherent Right to Self Defense
All persons entitled to defend their lives
A threat to one’s life can only be answered with deadly force
Not granted by society, intrinsic to life
Denial of this is endorsement of cannibalism
Granted by God or by nature
Not everyone believes in god
Not everyone can follow this level of philosophy

3. Constitutional Protection
Is highest law of the land
Any law lower that contradicts is null
Many laws already contradict constitution and should be held null but are not
Committing some wrongs do not mean we need to commit more
Only entity Officers of US swear to support and defend
Supreme Court interprets BUT
Has ruled badly in past i.e. Dred Scott
Usually rules against individual liberty

4. Original Intent
Only way to address constitution
Interpreting as we please renders document meaningless
Must obey as written, guided by intent
If desired can AMMEND text

5. Original Intent: Text Analysis

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Assisted by Webster’s dictionary 1828. Constitution drafted 1789 Most founders knew Noah Webster (he edited some Federalist papers), he likely represented their ideas of words, Oxford English Dictionary also an option, but requires pay access.
Well regulated: “Adjusted by rule, method or forms; put in good order” disciplined, capable, well-drilled, well-trained, able
Militia: “The militia of a country are the able bodied men organized into companies, regiments and brigades, with officers of all grades, and required by law to attend military exercises on certain days only, but at other times left to pursue their usual occupations” men between ages of 15 and 45 able to bear arms, who drill and are available for call-up
Necessary: “1. That must be; that cannot be otherwise; indispensably requisite. It is necessary that every effect should have a cause. 3. Unavoidable; as a necessary inference or consequence from facts or arguments.”
Free: 2. In government, not enslaved; not in a state of vassalage or dependence; subject only to fixed laws, made by consent, and to a regular administration of such laws; not subject to the arbitrary will of a sovereign or lord; as a free state, nation or people. The opposite of how the colonists felt themselves under Britain.
State: 5. A political body, or body politic; the whole body of people united under one government, whatever may be the form of the government. All people united under government.
Right: “10. Just claim; immunity; privilege. All men have a right to the secure enjoyment of life, personal safety, liberty and property. We deem the right of trial by jury invaluable, particularly in the case of crimes. Rights are natural, civil, political, religious, personal, and public. 11. Authority; legal power. We have no right to disturb others in the enjoyment of their religious opinions.” Not subject to restriction.
People: “1. The body of persons who compose a community, town, city or nation.” All people, not necessarily united in government.
Keep: “1. To hold; to retain in one's power or possession; not to lose or part with; as, to keep a house or a farm; to keep any thing in the memory, mind or heart. 2. To have in custody for security or preservation.” To possess under your own power.
Bear: 2. To carry; to convey; to support and remove from place to place; as, "they bear him upon the shoulder;", "the eagle beareth them on her wings.“12. To possess and use as power; to exercise; as, to bear sway.” Carry anywhere.
Arms: “1. Weapons of offense, or armor for defense and protection of the body. Sire arms, are such as may be charged with powder, as cannon, muskets, mortars, &c. A stand of arms consists of a musket, bayonet, cartridge-box and belt, with a sword. But for common soldiers a sword is not necessary.” Not Small Arms, a Stand of Arms, no “except sire arms or crew-served weapons or cannon”.
Shall not be: not may not or maybe not, or might be, or could be
infringed: “Broken; violated; transgresses.”

6. Constitutional Protection: Key Words
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
Words were chosen carefully.
It is the people, not the state, states or militia whose right shall not to be infringed.
The right is to keep and bear arms, not to access, practice or only keep or only bear.
Arms are not small arms, are not a specific type of arms, there is no prohibition on types arms, understanding of larger weapons with high lethality (mortars and cannon) was widespread

7. Defend Self From Government
Founders had observed war of self defense against government
Understood risk of tyrannical government and wanted to guarantee balance of power
Jefferson even endorsed violent clashes
Modern militias CAN challenge national forces
Libya, Syria, Afghanistan, Ukraine
Numerical, terrain advantages, capture of equipment and defection from government forces quickly even odds.

8. Defend Self From Government
Governments are scary
They kill more people than criminals BY FAR
In the 20th century most countries herded citizens into concentration camps at one point or another (US to Japanese)
It is hard to herd armed people into camps
Nazi Gun Control legislation enabled their genocides (JPFO studies on this-also link US Gun Control Act of 1968 to the Nazi text directly)
Armed Jews are scarier than disarmed Jews: Warsaw Ghetto Uprising

9. Defend Self From Government
The first gun control law National Firearms Act of 1934 was wrought with problems
Allegedly a revenue raising measure, not a ban
State’s case claimed short barreled shotguns in specific were not militia weapons as not used by any military (falsely)
Ignored that NFA 1934 also taxed Machine Guns, definitely used by Militaries
No defense counsel or brief submitted to Supreme Court
Very tricky, specific, semi-dishonest argument involving serial numbers won case
Even the A-USA in the first gun case before the court acknowledged the 2nd amendment is intended to protect military style weapons.
Registration leads to confiscation, there has been no example of national registration schemes not followed by confiscation of some or all registered weapons

10. Defend Self From Government
Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Weapons, Autonomous Weapons?
These are scary
People probably should not have them
Maybe we need a constitutional amendment
I would prefer governments not have them either, they are the only ones proven to have used them before, and will likely again.

11. Defend Self From Criminals
It is certain that in addition to protection from government, people are entitled to protect themselves from violence by criminals
This derives from the natural right to self defense
Founders understood the need, living before an era of police, and it is acceptable to argue this as a reason AFTER arguing protection for government (same with hunting)
Police cannot respond fast enough to save lives, just investigate after
Police cannot have legal obligation to protect people’s lives (case law has held this)

12. Defend Self From Criminals
Criminals do not obey laws-hence they are criminals
They will not obey gun laws
Only law abiding citizens will
Ordering the law abiding to disarm creates easy victims: “victim disarmament”
Any area the law abiding citizen’s right to bear arms is infringed will become a target for a criminal: ALL of the recent mass shootings occurred in legal (albeit unconstitutional) ‘gun-free’ zones
Lawful gun owners OFTEN end shootings with minimal or NO casualties.
Not being armed equally to criminals means the law abiding fight at disadvantage
Reload times kill (must have full capacity mags)
Don’t require the law abiding to bring a knife to a gun fight or a pistol to a rifle fight, or fists to an anything fight

13. Bad Arguments
It is bad to end the debate with god or nature and not include the constitution, most people cant handle esoteric, or belief arguments. This argument shuts down debate.
It is bad to interpret the constitution however we please, this renders it useless. This argument shuts down the debate.
It is bad to begin the argument of defense of self from government but not follow it all the way through its logical progression, that all existing gun control law is null as unconstitutional. This surrenders logical consistency and truth.
It is bad to begin to argue pragmatics on crime and self protection without including first protection from government, it is not the intent of the amendment.
It is wrong to even allow the opponents to use the phrases (let alone use them ourselves) ‘hunting and sporting’ these are not the intent of the amendment, do not derive from the right to self defense, and most importantly come from GCA 1968 which came from Nazi Gun Control laws

14. Definitions (Military not Legal)
Vehicles usually require a crew to employ and always require a large crew to maintain
E.G. Tanks, Helicopters, Jets, Armored Cars
Crew Served Weapons (CSW) require 2 or more people to employ
Weapons:
Cannon: CSW Large gun 40mm or larger, usually direct fire (flat trajectory)
Howitzer: CSW Large Indirect fire cannon
Mortar: CSW High angle indirect fire weapon
Grenade launcher: gun that fires grenades usually 37 mm or larger (close range indirect fire)
Machine Gun: CSW (usually) Often Belt Fed Gun that fires as long as the trigger is depressed, Heavy is .50cal Medium is .308cal and light .223 Cal (or near these calibers in soviet arms)
Sniper/Special purpose scoped rifle: CSW (when properly used) Long range (1000+ yd) rifle with a scope usually .308 cal or above
Designated Marksman Rifle (DMR): Medium Range (500-800 yds) rifle with a scope, usually .308 cal
Battle Rifle: Medium Range rifle (0-500 yds)
Assault rifle: Smaller caliber rifle for use by assault force, not suppression, light, close-range (0-300)
Carbine: Smaller caliber or powder compromise between a rifle and a submachine gun used for people not expected to be in combat or who MUST have light weight (paratroopers etc.) (0-300)
Submachine Gun: SMG small carbine that shoots a pistol caliber to limit recoil used for very close work that requires fast fires close assault, room clearing (0-100 yds)
Shotgun: Large bore gun for close range work can be automatic, semi-automatic or pump, usually fed fro m a tubular internal magazine newer models include detachable (0-100 yds)
Machine Pistol: An SMG, or a small SMG that looks like a pistol
Pistol: Semi automatic , automatic , or revolving chambered gun operable with one hand with much less powder than even a carbine round (often in calibers .45 and below)
Parts
Clip: a stripper clip has a number of rounds held together on a piece of metal for pushing into the gun rapidly, there they are stored in an internal magazine, “stripper” clips push the rounds off and into the magazine “en bloc” clips go into the guns magazine themselves
Magazine: Where rounds are stored before firing , internal magazines are rare anymore, much more common are detachable magazines often abbreviated “mags” the only military reason for limiting capacity is weight and unwieldy designs, this usually results in 20 rounds for .308, 30 for .223 and around 8-20 for pistols based on caliber size
It has become a legal debate since someone arbitrarily picked “10” as a magazine capacity limit in California, anti gunners say “high capacity” pro gun folk say “full capacity” or just “mag”
Belt: Disintegrating or reloaded (older or soviet) belts fire all rounds linked together fed from a bag or a box. Machineguns use this

Ammunition Round (Ammo, round or Cartridge) the complete package a gun fires (powder, bullet, casing, primer)
Bullet: Projectile that flies from a gun usually smaller and non-explosive
Casing: the brass that encases the powder, crimps to the bullet and holds the primer, ejects from gun after firing
Round: Individual unit of complete ammunition, includes bullet, casing, powder and primer
Shell: Canon or Howitzer bullet OR shotgun complete usually with plastic casing
Grenade: small explosive, can be designed to be thrown (hand-grenade) or fired from a launcher (it can only be either-or)
Measurements:
Caliber: imperial measures from groove to groove in hundredths of an inch diameter ex. .308
MM: metric measurements of lands to lands in mm, usually followed by a metric measurement of the length of the cartridge ex. 7.62x51

15. Rapid responses to opponents
Mass killings:
Not statistically rising or falling
Occur with similar volume and intensity per capita in nations with intense arms control (wiki rampage killings)
Highest casualty US school killing was in the 1920s, used explosives
Legally obtained automatic weapons have been used in 2 crimes in US history, one by a cop
Cops commit more illegal gun violence than concealed carry permit holders
Why don’t cops get mugged?
Guns are equalizers: 225lb 6’2 man vs 5’9 120lb woman: the outcome only changes when she has a gun

16. Pro Gun Organizations (Biased list)
Revolutionary War Veterans of America
Teach the historical connection between guns and the revolution, skills necessary to shoot
“no politics after 1776”
Gun Owners of America
Second biggest Pro gun lobby, second highest profile, very libertarian
“The only no-compromise gun lobby In Washington” –Ron Paul
National Association for Gun Rights
Rocky Mountain roots, anti-UN streak
“No compromise” est. 2000
Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership
Scholarship on gun control and genocide, especially Nazism
“America’s most Aggressive Defender of Firearms Ownership”
Citizens for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms
Strong critic of Obama Policies, especially fast and furious
“The Common Sense Gun Lobby”
National Rifle Association
The big dog, huge money (even its opponents admit the bulk of this comes from individual gun owners)
More willing to compromise than the above, but being pushed away from compromise by the above
Founded by Union Army Officers to ensure marksmanship for future soldiers
Independent Firearms Owners Association
Enforce the laws we have now, don’t persecute gun owners, NRA has gone too conservative because of the above
“Effective Solutions for Complex Criminal Justice Problems”
Libertarians:
Reason.com (good youtube video, some articles)
Cato Institute
Edited >1 y ago
Avatar feed
See Results
Responses: 152
Votes
  • Newest
  • Oldest
  • Votes
CPT Jack Durish
19
19
0
Absolutely not! There's nothing wrong with the Second Amendment. Nor guns. No with citizens bearing weapons. Why do we keep going over this? How damn dumb are We the People? How many times must we review the facts. The narrative that is pushed every time there's a shooting has nothing to do with public safety. The safest place in America are those with the most guns and the least controls. The most dangerous places have the least guns and the most controls. It doesn't take a genius to process those verifiable facts and reach the correct conclusion. Well you wouldn't think so, would you? But there are those who don't give a damn about public safety. They only care about control and they have an army of well-intentioned fools to parrot their propaganda
(19)
Comment
(0)
Capt Richard I P.
Capt Richard I P.
9 y
CPT Jack Durish I think you and I align on this one, by the by, this post was not made during one of the crises you can see dates and comments above). I've been pushing people here for a more reasonable and less emotional debate given the waving of bloody shirts going on.
(0)
Reply
(0)
CPT Jack Durish
CPT Jack Durish
9 y
Capt Richard I P. - You may push for "a more reasonable and less emotional debate" but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for it. This is mass hysteria, a witch hunt that flares up every time there's an "incident". So what's the harm? They've never succeeded in confiscating our guns, have they? They've managed to pass a few counter-productive ordinances in a few places, but we can simply vote with our feet and move to safer places, can't we? No, the real issue is that there is a problem, one that needs to be solved. The anti-gun nutters love to proclaim that they have compassion and gun owners are blood thirsty killers, backwoods rubes, or just plain ignorant SOB's, but the truth is that we're just as compassionate as they are. The difference is in the methodology. Sadly, they vent all their passion in periodic rants against guns every time there's an incident and then forget about it until the next one. If you try to engage them while their passion is up, you run into the brick wall of their hysteria. If you try to engage them in quieter moments, they aren't interested. They're emotionally and mentally exhausted from their rants. ...and nothing ever gets done.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SPC Johnney Abbott
SPC Johnney Abbott
>1 y
Exactly. How many deaths have been contributed to drunk driving? Yet adults can quite legally purchase both. Hell there are drive up windows at liquor stores now days.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SPC Robert Nasiff
SPC Robert Nasiff
2 y
Actually, the states with the least restrictive gun laws are mostly red states. And the gun homicidal rate of those red states is much higher than most blue states. Mississippi is an example: They have the country's least restrictive gun laws: Where no license or backgound check is required for open carry of hand guns. And yet, Mississippi has the highest rate of gun violence in the country. With Louisiana a close second.

Mississippi has the weakest gun laws in the country and the highest gun death rate.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ariannajohnson/2023/04/28/red-states-have-higher-gun-death-rates-than-blue-states-heres-why/?sh=a3498491f812

Sorry to prove you wrong Captain. But regardless, thank you for your service.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Wade W.
18
18
0
You don't have a response for me. No, enforce the laws that we currently have and all states should be like Arizona, no restrictions on carrying for all persons who can legally purchase.
(18)
Comment
(0)
SPC Robert Nasiff
SPC Robert Nasiff
2 y
A mentally ill person with no record can legally purchase in Arizona. A sane person pissed at someone can legally purchase a gun in Arizona to kill that person.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
PO2 Ron Burling
11
11
0
I believe we need to go back to the standard imposed in US v Miller, wherein the Supreme Court said the 2nd amendment mandates NO infringement on weapons of actual or potential military usefulness. BATFE can be stripped of their LE status and returned to their original, tax collecting duties and I can start looking for that 'blooper' (M79) I have always envied.

That decision was in 1939, since then there have been many 'compromises' in this arena that have always consisted of we gunners giving ground, no more!
(11)
Comment
(0)
Capt Richard I P.
Capt Richard I P.
9 y
PO2 Ron Burling That whole case is nothing but irony. One of the best parts is the Justices deciding (incorrectly-trench clearing) that a short barreled shotgun could have tax stamps infringing on them because they were NOT useful in military applications. How far we have come.
(2)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSgt Forensic Meteorological Consultant
11
11
0
Being a sweet little snowflake I fall gently to the ground. lol. You forgot "I do not like any of the choices". lol. But seriously it is just another power grab, at the hands of a government that makes it illegal to collect rain water and camping on your own land. lol COL Mikel J. Burroughs . And I am also a little teapot, short and stout.
(11)
Comment
(0)
CPT Military Police
(0)
Reply
(0)
SSgt Forensic Meteorological Consultant
SSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
CPT (Join to see) ?, on what points? My subtle or not so subtle attempt at humor or my governmental asides about rainwater, which is very true.
(2)
Reply
(0)
A1C Melissa Jackson
A1C Melissa Jackson
9 y
I, too, am DEEPLY annoyed by efforts to restrict or prohibit me from gathering rain water for my plants. I do it anyway. Do ignore other laws because they are outrageous? Not yet that I know of- but I might some more in the future if there are additional attempts to make nonsensical rules about the use of something that literally belongs to EVERYONE, like rainwater- or sunshine.
(3)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Clarence Couch
Sgt Clarence Couch
2 y
Agreed, I too chose snowflake, as the poll is rigged. Manipulating the choices to fit a particular narrative voids the poll.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSgt Robert Dant
10
10
0
I think we are all getting a little confused by many of the changes that are proposing that our founding documents should be changed. I simply look at it that our founding fathers were a lot smarter than we as they did not wear any clocks of politically correct. They fought hard to free this nation and then fought hard amongst themselves to deliver one of the greatest nations in the world. Even if we took all the guns off the street - those wanting them would still get them. So why limit my freedom to protect myself - even from my own government if it gets stupid (and very close to it now).
(10)
Comment
(0)
SPC Robert Nasiff
SPC Robert Nasiff
2 y
How is your government threatening you?
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
PO1 John Miller
8
8
0
Capt Richard I P.
Keep the Constitution and Bill of Rights and repeal all other laws as I personally believe that they are unconstitutional.
With that said, some people think that "civilians" should not own WMD's or fully automatic weapons. The argument is "They don't need them." The simple response is to say something like "You don't NEED a sports car that is capable of 200+ MPH but yet you want one. How is owning a full-auto AK47 or a Glock 18 any different?" Simply put, it's not. I don't know how I can explain it any differently.

Also, it's right there in the language: "The right of the people..." last I checked, I am part of "the people."
(8)
Comment
(0)
PO1 John Miller
PO1 John Miller
>1 y
Capt Richard I P.
Too true Sir. Driving is a privilege whereas owning a gun is a right.
(2)
Reply
(0)
PO1 John Miller
PO1 John Miller
>1 y
Cpl (Join to see)
Great quote Kirk. Though because of the way it's worded I'm sure some "gun grabbers" out there will say "Well, this quote only applies to swords!"
(2)
Reply
(0)
Cpl Software Engineer
Cpl (Join to see)
>1 y
PO1 John Miller If they say it, take away their modern day media tools and hand them a quill and parchment.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SPC Robert Nasiff
SPC Robert Nasiff
2 y
PO1 John Miller - With your argument, there should be no laws limiting anyone from owning guns, even the mentally ill and criminals. "PEOPLE" includes everyone by your definition!
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
COL Sam Russell
7
7
0
Edited 9 y ago
C7f7e09d
4--"When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."
One of the first signs of a tyrannical government is disarming its populace, and thus removing their ability to "dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another."
The only time I am disarmed is when I go to work because the government that I serve insists that neither I nor my comrades-in-arms can be trusted with weapons at home station. The rent-a-cop security at the Pentagon even insists on confiscating my Army issued Gerber multi-purpose tool, before admitting me to the sanctum sanctorum.
The photograph is of my youngest daughter at our outdoor range. She is firing my father's M1917 S&W .45 revolver, the privately owned weapon that he carried during his two tours in Vietnam, as he preferred the revolver over the Army-issued semi-automatic of the same caliber.
(7)
Comment
(0)
Capt Richard I P.
Capt Richard I P.
9 y
COL Sam Russell You may enjoy this post, on the topic of arms and the "Armed forces".

https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/arm-the-armed-forces
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Mark Sullivan
7
7
0
0af50d7d
A criminal always has one advantage over regular Joe Civilian, the jump. The criminal knows that he/she is going to commit a crime, well before the intended victim. Yes, the possibility of someone being armed is a deterrent. I honestly think that controlling weapons and and amending the 2nd Amendment is fools play. Especially when we haven't even acknowledged the actual problem. Why are people so afraid to recognize that we have a mental health issue, and have created a society where peoples first reaction to resolve a problem is through violence. The most recent example is the Portsmouth, VA mother who barged into her sons Elementary School, to force her son to fight another child in the classroom. There are other examples, of where a mother attended her daughters street fight, to ensure her daughter won. These are just a few examples of this, but, this is what has been happening in the United States. When people attempt to compare the United States to other countries, they fail to recognize the one simple fact. People in other countries know how to handle themselves differently, and not through violence. Whereas, in the United States, it is the norm. We glorify gangs, we glorify criminals, through movies and media outlets. We have a basic attitude of what's mine is mine, and if you have something I want give it to me or else. Thuis is not as gun control issue, this is a mental health issue.
(7)
Comment
(0)
SFC Mark Biggs
SFC Mark Biggs
8 y
You could have added King George III of Britain. When the British left Boston on April 19, 1775, they were headed to confiscate privately owned muskets, shot, and powder that were stored in Concord, Massachusetts. Thanks to Paul Revere and American patriots from "every Middlesex village and farm", the Brits mission failed, and a lot fewer lobsterbacks arrived back in Boston than had departed the night before. The 2nd Amendment exists, in part, so that Americans will always have the means to throw off attempts at tyranny.
(1)
Reply
(0)
PO3 Paul Lowrey
PO3 Paul Lowrey
>1 y
I wonder why anti-second amendment never calls out Hollywood and makers of video games. Just a thought.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SPC Robert Nasiff
SPC Robert Nasiff
>1 y
PO3 Paul Lowrey - What does anit-2nd amendment mean to you?
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MSG Jeremy Jiron
6
6
0
I question the oath of any soldier that disagrees with the constitution with an emphasis of the second amendment.

But the weak woke brain washed toxic leadership of today is against their oath, and the constitution.
(6)
Comment
(0)
SGT Jimmy Carpenter
SGT Jimmy Carpenter
2 y
Let's not forget about all the politicians who also took an oath to uphold and defend the constitution that blatantly disregard it on a daily basis.
(3)
Reply
(0)
MSG Jeremy Jiron
MSG Jeremy Jiron
2 y
SGT Jimmy Carpenter agree 1000% Sergeant
(4)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Maj Robert Thornton
6
6
0
As I scrolled down the page my thumb hit the vote box for number one. It doesn't let you change it. My answer would be number 4.
The reason for the 2nd Ammendment is clear, to protect the other Ammendments and to protect the populace from the government.
The belief held by some that it is not an individual right is false. All of the Ammendments are individual rights.
(6)
Comment
(0)
SPC Gary Weathermon
SPC Gary Weathermon
2 y
Yep me too.
(2)
Reply
(0)
CPL Larry Frias Jr
CPL Larry Frias Jr
2 y
Hahaha that’s funny !!!!
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.