Posted on Dec 1, 2013
Does wearing just one piece of a uniform equal being out of uniform?
155K
211
115
10
10
0
I was at the gym with my soldier and he was wearing his army PT shirt with civilian shorts. When we were about to leave a SGT from another unit told him that he was violating regs. The PFC tried to explain that he was not in uniform because he was only wearing the shirt. The SGT again said it is out of regs. I came to my soldiers defense and asked the SGT if there was a local regulation about PT wear. The SGT asked me if I was backtalking him. I said no SGT I was asking for clarification if he wanted us to look it up in AR 670-1 or if there was a local ordinance. He said look up AR 670-1, we know that our soldier was not doing anything wrong because we had looked this up before. What are your oppinions on this. I see many SGT vaguely citing regs and not knowing the exact wording of the reg itself.
Uniforms
NCOs
Discipline
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 37
15
15
0
Without knowing the full context of the situation, I'm going to make a reasonable assumption that due to the three people in this situation were military, that this occurred at an on-post gym. That said....
14–4. Occasions for wear
The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized by the commander.
AR 670-1 no where authorizes anyone to mix IPFU uniforms ON the installation.
Wear of military and civilian items.
(1) The wear of a combination of civilian and military clothing is prohibited, unless prescribed in this regulation or other authorization documents approved by HQDA.
So, even those post-level "blue books" have no authority to change the uniform guidelines unless they get HQDA approval.
Other key notes that AR 670-1 states...
In accordance with chapter 45, section 771, title 10, United States Code (10 USC 771), no person except a member of the U.S. Army may wear the uniform, or a distinctive part of the uniform of the U.S. Army unless otherwise authorized by law. Additionally, no person except a member of the U.S. Army may wear a uniform, any part of which is similar to a distinctive part of the U.S. Army uniform.
So, all those army wives wearing their husbands' uniforms are wrong.
(15)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
SFC Harris,
I had never heard that bit from the USC 771... I've been told many times by many NCOs that folks CAN wear Uniform parts, just not the patches, but the excerpt you quoted CERTAINLY seems to say the opposite!!!
I had never heard that bit from the USC 771... I've been told many times by many NCOs that folks CAN wear Uniform parts, just not the patches, but the excerpt you quoted CERTAINLY seems to say the opposite!!!
(2)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
Apparently no one here has read your message SFC Harris. The chapter you referenced should have ended this discussion.
(1)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
While it is technically law according to US Code, it is one of those that is hard to enforce (wearing uniform parts by civilians) as it could be argued that it falls under free speech/expression.
(1)
(0)
11
11
0
It is different throughout Army posts. For example, Joint Base Lewis McChord has a policy that states, OFF Post you may wear the APFT Shirt with civilians, but not on post. I don't see the big deal. You are right in the fact that many like to spout off regs, but haven't actually read them beyond ArmyStudyGuide.com's board questions. Also, many of them continue to teach as they were "taught". We have to take it upon ourselves to be the leaders we want to become.
(11)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
You are so correct SGT Ray. I think another member was talking about the uniform policy issues a few posts back. Some uniform policies will change from post to post and that tends to throw a lot of people off since a lot of things can be determined at the Commander's discretion.
(4)
(0)
11
11
0
If there's neither a Regulation, nor a Command Policy Letter against it, then it's authorized. Simple as that.
(11)
(0)
CPT William Jones
There you go chief. I was a big believer that if a reg doesn’t tell you you may not do something it is permitted when I came on active duty in 1966 as an O-1 I was the direct cause of three post regs being made or changed in my first 6 months.
(0)
(0)
CPT William Jones
Sgt if you cannot show me a reg or official written rule that says I may not do something I can do it. Check with the JAG SGT (Join to see)
(1)
(0)
CPT William Jones
SGT (Join to see) - again sgt if you have nothing to back your authority you have none. if a soldier has clothes he may wear them most anyway he/she wants unless you have written rules against it.All you may enforce is what is written. as an NCO you had better be able to show where you are telling a soldier he is wrong about something. If it isnt in the rules and reg as a no-no it is legal to do and say.
(0)
(0)
CPT William Jones
LTC Stephan Porter -mean NCOs have no authority to act on their own to enforce anything at all.They may enforce rule,regs, and lawful orders given them by their chain of command
(0)
(0)
5
4
1
WOW! Some of you need to get over yourselves. Your personal opinion doesn't mean JACK! So don't try to use your stripes to force it on others just because you can, this makes you a TOOL as apposed to a LEADER. Personally I don't see why anyone would want to wear any part of any uniform outside of work anyway. I cant wait to take off my uniform and put on some comfortable clothes.
(5)
(1)
SFC (Join to see)
MAJ(P) (Join to see), SSgt Phillips didn’t single out any one person and disrespect them. I’m not agreeing with what he said, but I do feel he has a right to say it. While this is a military themed website, it is not an official military website. It is just another online forum. There are plenty of members here that no longer serve and are no longer held to military standards of conduct. If members have to walk on eggshells worrying about being “locked up” in the virtual world, this place will die a quick death.
(2)
(0)
MAJ(P) (Join to see)
I understand your view point and truly appreciate your insight. I simply have a different outlook. Though this is only a military "themed" forum, I still encourage or recommend that we still conduct ourselves in the same manner as if we were all standing in the same room.
More so, I'm a stickler for the utmost professionalism - in and out of uniform, on or off post, on or off duty, and online or in person.
More so, I'm a stickler for the utmost professionalism - in and out of uniform, on or off post, on or off duty, and online or in person.
(0)
(0)
SSgt (Join to see)
Capt, I'm sorry u feel like I threw sand in your vagina but I wasn't directing that to you specifically and there was no "tone" to it. Unless the shoe fits then lace it up and wear it. My point was, it doesn't matter what rank you are, it doesn't give you the right to force your personal belief or view on others and be a dick about it. And if someone isn't folowing a regulation, it's ok to talk to them like an adult and correct the issue. In fact, it usually produces better results.
(2)
(0)
4
4
0
<p>Although there isn't wording for or against the mixture of PT gear with civilian clothes, it bugs the hell out of me when I see the two mixed. I'm sure that your Soldier has a civilian t-shirt to go along with his civilian shorts, just as they have pt shorts to go along with his shirt. Take pride in what you wear, take pride in the uniform. When I'm off duty the last thing you are going to see me wear is a military uniform. </p><p> </p><p>SPC, I now have a question for you regarding this. If I saw you or your Soldier in the gym in mixed attire and said to go change into full civilian or full military clothing, what would you say? I'm sure that you would argue that the regulation doesn't specify guideance on this. And I would come back with, "Did I not just give you a lawful order?" Just to save you the time to research this, a lawful order is "an order given to you by someone appointed over you by higher authority which you are legally bound to obey and that does not require you to break the law to obey." The NCO in the gym didn't do the research on the reg and you are correct that the reg doesn't state anything in regards to the mixture of PT and civilian attire, but I wouldn't have debated with you or your Soldier. It would be a simple go change your clothes and come back when you are in a complete PT uniform or all civilian attire. Oh, and just for the record, we are "on duty" 24/7. We are Soldiers all the time, not just 0900-1700. </p><p> </p>
(4)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
670-1
paragraph 3-9
g. Uniform items authorized for wear with civilian clothing by males are restricted to the gold cuff links, studs, tie
bar, mourning band, footwear, socks, gloves, undergarments, black bow-tie, wool scarf, all-weather coat, fleece caps,
and physical training uniforms.
h. Uniform items authorized for wear with civilian clothing by females are restricted to the white shirt without
insignia of grade, footwear, gloves, handbag, clutch purse, wool scarf, all-weather coat, fleece caps, and physical
training uniforms.
(1)
(0)
MSgt (Join to see)
Ok I get the reg being the reg! But something you said that kind of jumps out at me. You said it bugs you of the mix and match, don't get what bugs you confused with what the regulations says. Yes you giving a jr member a direct order because you don't like something or its your preference is unmoarl, and unlawful. If the regulation said no mix and match and you then gave your soilder a lawfull order to go fix themself then I'd be tracking! But to simply give them a order because you don't like or it bugs you is wrong in my book.
(2)
(0)
MSgt (Join to see)
For example you give your solider a direct order to shoot a warning shot in the air, him knowing that is unlawful and he can get in a lot of trouble! So because you are an NCO and appointed over that soilder do you expect him to follow your order, or questions you being he knows that is not right. NCOs get there authority confused sometime with reason and understanding! And or because I'm a NCO you need to do it because I told you so! Got it as long as your giving a lawful order and it's not unmoarl back you all day! But just to do it cuz you can well then I think you need to be checked yourself and ask yourself and I doing right by my jr members! Or am I barking orders because I can!
(0)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
I'm sorry if my comments have you a little butt hurt TSGT. Everyone seems to think I'm some power happy nco who loves the "power". We could line up every Soldier that I have ever supervised and they would all say that I was very hard, but fair. I taught them that there is a lot of grey area in the regulations, but to allows maintain a high level of discipline and professionalism. So, the next time one of your Soldiers is out acting a fool or dressed in an unprofessional manner, remember that it is a reflection of you, your unit, and the service. It's ok though, the regulation doesn't give you authority to do anything about it because if you did you'd just be barking orders. Obviously the number of leaders who actually give a shit about professionalism and discipline are drastically declining.
(1)
(0)
3
3
0
<p>AR 670-1 states the following: </p><p><br></p><b><font face="Arial" size="2"><font face="Arial" size="2"><p align="LEFT">14–4. Occasions for wear</p><p align="LEFT"><br></p></font></font></b><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><font face="Times New Roman" size="2"><p align="LEFT">The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized by the commander.</p><p align="LEFT"><br></p><p align="LEFT">Unless your unit or your installation have a written policy letter stating that it is not authorized your Soldier was not in the wrong. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wearing a PT Shirt with civilian shorts while working out at the gym. He should be telling the Soldier good job for taking the initiative to work out on his own during his free time instead of worrying about what shirt he is wearing. There are too many NCO enforcing the "standard" that don't even know what the standard is. </p><p align="LEFT"><br></p><p align="LEFT">I would print this excerpt from 670-1 and carry it with me so that way if it happens in the future you can show the SGT in black and white what the regulation says. You could even go one step further and ask your commander if he authorizes it so that you can ensure you are in the right. </p></font><p><br></p></font><p><br></p>
(3)
(0)
MAJ(P) (Join to see)
I interpret your citation differently. "When authorized by your commander..." does not mean if there is no written policy, the answer is "yes."
The way I see it, that citation means that there needs to be a written policy by your commander stating it is in fact authorized.
Again, this is merely my interpretation. However, every on-post gym has a written policy. It's simply best to cite that policy.
The way I see it, that citation means that there needs to be a written policy by your commander stating it is in fact authorized.
Again, this is merely my interpretation. However, every on-post gym has a written policy. It's simply best to cite that policy.
(0)
(0)
MAJ(P) (Join to see)
Another way to approach this is, let's say the post CG writes a policy stating that half-day work schedules are authorized during the Christmas holidays, when authorized by the unit commanders.
I'm not taking off at noon during that time unless I'm actually told I can do so.
I'm not taking off at noon during that time unless I'm actually told I can do so.
(0)
(0)
3
3
0
Now, as for Soldiers citing regs that may or may not exist, many fall into the trap of Unit SOPs... they have a standard at one unit, so when they move to a new unit, they just assume that the same standard applies... This, of course, is not always the case.
It is important for all of us as leaders (even the E-4 and below types) to distinguish between what IS regulation, what IS unit policy/procedure, and what we think they SHOULD be...
That being said, on the spot corrections are best done with tact and consideration. Whether you are questioning a PV2 on mixing PTs with civvies or telling the 4-star that his flag is upside down, you can discreetly approach them to address the issue. This can save both of you a lot of embarrassment - them for not being called out in front of their fellow Soldiers, and you for not making an @$$ of yourself if you are WRONG!!!
It is important for all of us as leaders (even the E-4 and below types) to distinguish between what IS regulation, what IS unit policy/procedure, and what we think they SHOULD be...
That being said, on the spot corrections are best done with tact and consideration. Whether you are questioning a PV2 on mixing PTs with civvies or telling the 4-star that his flag is upside down, you can discreetly approach them to address the issue. This can save both of you a lot of embarrassment - them for not being called out in front of their fellow Soldiers, and you for not making an @$$ of yourself if you are WRONG!!!
(3)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
For example, I was walking through the Dining Facility a few months ago, and noticed a CW4 with his headgear on... I discreetly said "sir, I don't know if you know this or not, but you still have your headgear on."
He proceeded in telling me that he could wear it inside because it was "his building" which made little sense to me, but his confidence told me that at least HE though he was right.
Later, I asked around, and found out that he was, in fact, in charge of the DFAC, and that when you are WORKING in the DFAC, you are required to wear your headgear for sanitary reasons... which makes TOTAL SENSE!
Now If I had made that correction more publicly, I would have been humiliated, but as it was, only the CW4, myself, and a couple of other NCOs even know about the incident, and now I am a better-educated Soldier for the experience.
He proceeded in telling me that he could wear it inside because it was "his building" which made little sense to me, but his confidence told me that at least HE though he was right.
Later, I asked around, and found out that he was, in fact, in charge of the DFAC, and that when you are WORKING in the DFAC, you are required to wear your headgear for sanitary reasons... which makes TOTAL SENSE!
Now If I had made that correction more publicly, I would have been humiliated, but as it was, only the CW4, myself, and a couple of other NCOs even know about the incident, and now I am a better-educated Soldier for the experience.
(2)
(0)
3
3
0
Even though the AR says it is okay, I always told my Soldiers to error on the side of caution for this exact reason. Even while down range, unless my Soldiers were doing laundry, I told them it be better to maintain their uniform as a complete set. You just never know when someone might think just because he/she has a few stripes on their uniform that they now know every word in every AR. In the example given here, the SGT was out of line and I'm glad to see you stand up and ask for clarification. Great job and great learning experience for you as you get ready to be promoted.
(3)
(0)
SGT Ben Keen
Oh I by no means am trying to say it is okay to mix match uniform pieces. But there were times that it was needed. As we all know from being down range, you do what is needed to be done to safely and successfully complete the mission. If the mission was to wash to your dirty socks and drawers and the only way to do that was to wear a brown/tan tshirt with your PT shorts than that is what was done.
I also found many ARs, FMs, and other pubs to lack a lot of clarification, not just AR 670-10. LOL
(2)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
I agree, there are a lot of regs that need some fine tuning, but until that happens it's going to be up to the officers and NCO's to ensure that Soldiers conduct themselves as professionals.
(1)
(0)
LTC (Join to see)
Yes it does. I am so tired of seeing military people walking around in just a t-shirt or boots. It drives me crazy. Either wear the whole uniform or do your laundry.
(3)
(0)
CW2 Joseph Evans
The guy who showed up to a firefight in a flak vest and boxers... you know, the ones with the hearts that made the NY times...<br>I think I'd cut the guy some slack as long as he brought the SAW.<br>
(4)
(0)
3
3
0
Most installations have local policy in the form of a Blue Book (standards book), check with the installation you are assigned to.
(3)
(0)
2
2
0
I agree about being professional so no one will get you into a situation where you feel the need to defend yourself, unless you are absolutely sure you are right and even then, pick your battles. As they say, "Is this the hill you want to die on?"
(2)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google