Posted on Dec 1, 2013
Does wearing just one piece of a uniform equal being out of uniform?
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I was at the gym with my soldier and he was wearing his army PT shirt with civilian shorts. When we were about to leave a SGT from another unit told him that he was violating regs. The PFC tried to explain that he was not in uniform because he was only wearing the shirt. The SGT again said it is out of regs. I came to my soldiers defense and asked the SGT if there was a local regulation about PT wear. The SGT asked me if I was backtalking him. I said no SGT I was asking for clarification if he wanted us to look it up in AR 670-1 or if there was a local ordinance. He said look up AR 670-1, we know that our soldier was not doing anything wrong because we had looked this up before. What are your oppinions on this. I see many SGT vaguely citing regs and not knowing the exact wording of the reg itself.
Uniforms
NCOs
Discipline
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 37
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As SGT Martin quoted: "The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the
commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized by the commander."
If I read this correctly, you MUST have AUTHORIZATION by the commander to wear your PTs off the installation... AND you MUST have AUTHORIZATION to mix PTs with civvies OFF POST... it never says you can mix them on post...
I have NEVER seen a policy letter by ANY of my chain of command, nor my garrison command group that authorized me to mix PTs with civvies, so according to the wording in the reg, I MAY NOT do so!!!
I remember being taught in basic training that the regulation should not be interpreted as a list of limitations, rather as a list of allowances... if it is not SPECIFICALLY allowed in the regulation, or by a command policy that supersedes the regulation, then it is NOT ALLOWED!!!
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CW4 (Join to see)
NOPE! Sorry, SGT, but this one is the exact opposite of right. Does your commander SPECIFICALLY authorize you to watch the History Channel? Or learn to play the piano? Or wipe your ass or brush your teeth? There's no way any Commander can find enough hours in the day to type policy letters to specifically authorize EVERYTHING you do. If there is no law, Regulation, or Policy letter specifically forbidding an action, then it IS allowed.
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SGT (Join to see)
perhaps I overstepped my bounds with that last paragraph, but still, the regulation appears to say that mixing PTs and civvies is ONLY allowed OFF POST... and ONLY when authorized by the commander...
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SGT (Join to see)
In regards to this particular issue, it is certainly safer to err on the side of not mixing unless you are absolutely certain it is authorized...
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CW4 (Join to see)
So... I'm sitting here reading my comment above from quite a while back. It kinda looks like I was using a much harsher tone than I'd intended. To clarify, I was going for "helpful and cautionary", rather than "What the hell are you thinking!?!". Sorry, SGT O'Neill! Wasn't trying to be a dick!
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If he was "on duty", he should be "in uniform". So, during PT hours or during duty day, if wearing part of the uniform, he should be wearing all of the uniform.<br>Local exceptions for unit shirts. Portions of the PT uniform are never suitable for wear in any installation facility except medical and gyms.<br>So, 1900 at the gym, PT shirt and civilian shorts is probably ok. 0630, probably better to be in full PT uniform. Saturday at the park with the kids, probably fine to wear the jacket, going shopping at the commissary, wear something not everyone knows gets sweaty nasty 5 days a week.<br>Unfortunately this is one of those things that is a pet peeve for some, and a little consideration for a CSMs heart palpitations will go a long way in saving some poor Soldier a lot of grief regardless of what the regs say.<br>Right now, mix and match is ok by the Army Reg, to a point and the same with most post policies. Excessive abuse of this "freedom" will of course result in stricter policies.<br>As for NCOs saying its "in the regs", I hear a lot of BS coming out of Christians mouths saying "Its in the Bible", 80% of the time, the mouthpiece hasn't even read it, doesn't mean you're going to win the argument though.<br>
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LTC Jason Bartlett
I guess I should have trolled your profile, but since you are deployed to Afghanistan you fall under US National Standards (ISAF uniform policy). There is no mixing of military and or civilian attire this includes IPFU. Regardless sounds as if you handled the situation tactfully and Chief Evans offered some solid advice as well.
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SGT (Join to see)
Chief,
Call me old school, but aren't we, as Soldiers, on duty 24/7/365?
SPC,
You can be in a military uniform even if you have beards. It's called relaxed grooming standards. I had a beard while I was stationed in Hohenfels, Germany and we wore uniforms.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
Alan,
Yes, 24/7/365. Still, during that time, Soldiers are given time to decompress. There is an expectation that as a Soldier, you will maintain a professional appearance and manner of conduct. The issue of mix and match uniform is clear in 670-1 and clarified by post blue books. The issue of "Special Mission" status, such as this Soldier and his subordinate were operating under, has its own local policy based on best practices for the unit and/or theater of operations. Being junior Soldiers, their intent was probably in the best interest of their mission, but somewhat lacking in judgment do to their lack of experience.
We all make mistakes. Being an Intelligence operator, they have a requirement to understand the why, of their error, not just that it was an error. That being said, most Soldiers prefer to understand rather than simply accepting. Providing that why is a critical part of mentorship that we are to provide as seniors.
In a situation where an NCO is operating in Transmit only mode to a Soldier that is operating on a different Receive frequency, the intent of the transmission falls on deaf ears. The missions the Military is responsible for these days, requires an ability to think, reason and act, not just with the best of intent, but with quality of thought and reason. Old school, receive mode only is no longer suitable for today's missions to be effective.
Yes, 24/7/365. Still, during that time, Soldiers are given time to decompress. There is an expectation that as a Soldier, you will maintain a professional appearance and manner of conduct. The issue of mix and match uniform is clear in 670-1 and clarified by post blue books. The issue of "Special Mission" status, such as this Soldier and his subordinate were operating under, has its own local policy based on best practices for the unit and/or theater of operations. Being junior Soldiers, their intent was probably in the best interest of their mission, but somewhat lacking in judgment do to their lack of experience.
We all make mistakes. Being an Intelligence operator, they have a requirement to understand the why, of their error, not just that it was an error. That being said, most Soldiers prefer to understand rather than simply accepting. Providing that why is a critical part of mentorship that we are to provide as seniors.
In a situation where an NCO is operating in Transmit only mode to a Soldier that is operating on a different Receive frequency, the intent of the transmission falls on deaf ears. The missions the Military is responsible for these days, requires an ability to think, reason and act, not just with the best of intent, but with quality of thought and reason. Old school, receive mode only is no longer suitable for today's missions to be effective.
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SGT (Join to see)
Joseph,
I agree that the Soldiers need to know the "why". I'm not some a**hole that goes around yelling at Soldiers all the time. I do enforce standards and explain how the standards weren't met. The younger generation of Soldiers don't seem to understand that their actions and how they present themselves impact the image of the military. There are a lot of things that regs don't cover, but most times the common sense factor comes into play. I try my best to instill a sense of pride into my Soldiers. I want them to be proud of who they are, the unit they are in, and the military in general. I, in turn, expect them to conduct themselves as professionals so when other people look at them, they will be proud of who they see.
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SGT (Join to see)
In my experience it is most often the base commander who makes this kind of policy, but I have always been in very small units with distant commanders.
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14–4. Occasions for wear
The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the
commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized
by the commander.
The PFU and the IPFU are authorized for wear on and off duty, on and off the installation, when authorized by the
commander. Soldiers may wear all or part of the PFU or IPFU with civilian attire off the installation, when authorized
by the commander.
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LTC (Join to see)
That was one of the "selling points" when they came out with the new PTs. I have never wanted to wear my PTs when not required to.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
I've never understood why anyone would want to wear them when they didn't have to... I guess my fashion sense is flawed..
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
So.... if there were no "local" regs or rules - was it "authorized by the commander"?
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Don't get it twisted there is a difference between a lawful order, and a order a NCO is giving because the feel like they are hyped up like superman! If the reg states you can mix and match! Well damnit you can mix and max! You are wrong if because you don't like what the regulations saying to tell a jr member to go change. By you doing that you are killing good order and discipline all because your an NCO and you want to prove a point that you have the authority to bark orders! As a NCO with that kind of character ou will fail down your path of success!
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It is similar to Police Officer on the beat, many of them don't know all the laws, or are entire ignorant of Laws, like many Citizens are, once you try to inform them of the various Law code. It seems to irritate them something fierce. It like they can't seem to admit it when someone calls them out on something. We are all human, and we all make mistakes.
Many NCOs and Officers can cite regulation, like many people can throw Bible verses, and in both cases, they are vague or missing the much larger, clear picture of the Regulation or story. Same thing when people try cite the Constitution and our Founding Father intentions. Yet, it all has been twisted, I am sorry, but really arguing over the incomplete PT uniform. The only time this should be issue is during unit PT, otherwise use some common sense with it. The only reason we have PT uniform is to have everyone look the close to the same during PT as the Military can feasible do so.
Sounds like some Sergeant was nitpicking and looking for promotion.
Many NCOs and Officers can cite regulation, like many people can throw Bible verses, and in both cases, they are vague or missing the much larger, clear picture of the Regulation or story. Same thing when people try cite the Constitution and our Founding Father intentions. Yet, it all has been twisted, I am sorry, but really arguing over the incomplete PT uniform. The only time this should be issue is during unit PT, otherwise use some common sense with it. The only reason we have PT uniform is to have everyone look the close to the same during PT as the Military can feasible do so.
Sounds like some Sergeant was nitpicking and looking for promotion.
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I had an E-7 chew me out for wearing a tan T shirt with a pair of basket ball shorts while at the px. He tried to tell me I was violating AR 670-1, I polity responded SGT please read AR 670-1 para 3-9 bullets F and G. This section will tell you what is authorized for wear in/mixed with civilians.
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I am an MP. I will wear my head gear inside of a building when underarms. Sometimes this butt hurts people but they will get over it. One I am going to carry the part form AR 670-1 in my pocket that says I can wear headgear inside of a building.
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CPT William Jones
I believe the regs require you to wear a cover when under arms. that is one of the exceptions to wearing headgear indoors.
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I know this response won't be popular - but why not just let the guy workout and get on with life. It's not that serious and I often am annoyed with the "I know more than you" and "I want to assert my power" leadership. :)
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SSG (ret) William Martin
Also, when a SR leader says "back talk" to a lower ranking soldier I take that as an insult as I am not a teenager or child and that SR leader lacks the ability to effectively communicate with a tactful and intelligent soldier.
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Your authority has to come from somewhere, Sergeant. If you see a violation of a regulation or policy letter, you have every right to correct that Soldier. If neither of those things are being violated, then it's just you going on a power trip. That is NOT leadership. It's taking advantage of both your rank and their ignorance of where your authority starts and stops. Just as our NCOs did to us when we were PVTs and didn't know better. Only I do know better now. You've been in long enough that you should too.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
If I see something which I question the validity on, I will research it, look it up, ask my peers, or ask my 1SG is a wise man before I make an on the spot correction.
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CPT William Jones
SSG (ret) William Martin - I have found in my 74 years both in service and my job that asking peers if something is right or wrong is dangerous lots of them have the attitude of we have always done it this way so it must be right. turns out when you look it up they have always been wrong.
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