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What if you found out your Platoon Commander was a dope smoking college dropout that submitted forged documents to enter the military. On the outside, he looks like a model infantry officer, but it also has been your observation that your Platoon Commander is lazy, forgetful, and inept (can't read a map) and he relies heavily on his SNCO's to think for him... you being one of them.
You inform your Commanding Officer and he tells you there's nothing he can do about it because the Platoon Commander's father is a high ranking Senator on the Senate Armed Services Committee. The Senator had been the target of allegations of corruption and the General who leaked word of his corruption to the press was relieved and forced into retirement. Shortly after retiring, the General was the unfortunate victim of a home invasion in which his wife and daughter were brutally murdered. Coincidence?
Your Commanding Officer is worried about his career and doesn't want to make waves that could adversely impact his family or chances for promotion. He forbids you to bring the matter up again -- with ANYONE!
Your Platoon Commander finds out you told your Commanding Officer and calls you into his office. He chews you out and promises to gives you a career ending mediocre fitness report if you tell anyone else what you know... and it appears your Commanding Officer has been threatened in some way. Your Commanding Officer is clearly intimidated and refuses to do anything about it.
Your unit is preparing to deploy overseas and could be in combat. What do you do?
You inform your Commanding Officer and he tells you there's nothing he can do about it because the Platoon Commander's father is a high ranking Senator on the Senate Armed Services Committee. The Senator had been the target of allegations of corruption and the General who leaked word of his corruption to the press was relieved and forced into retirement. Shortly after retiring, the General was the unfortunate victim of a home invasion in which his wife and daughter were brutally murdered. Coincidence?
Your Commanding Officer is worried about his career and doesn't want to make waves that could adversely impact his family or chances for promotion. He forbids you to bring the matter up again -- with ANYONE!
Your Platoon Commander finds out you told your Commanding Officer and calls you into his office. He chews you out and promises to gives you a career ending mediocre fitness report if you tell anyone else what you know... and it appears your Commanding Officer has been threatened in some way. Your Commanding Officer is clearly intimidated and refuses to do anything about it.
Your unit is preparing to deploy overseas and could be in combat. What do you do?
Posted in these groups: 
Ethics
Ethics
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 35
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Forged documents = fraudulant enlistment and is punishable under UCMJ. Period. Any exteranl attempt to change that is undue influence. Also punishable under UCMJ.
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Capt Jeff S.
President Thomas Jefferson, who also authored the Declaration of Independence, did not trust the public to make the best decisions. He understood that human nature, being what it is, would see the Constitutional Republic that they sacrificed their livelihoods and lives to give birth to, steadily implode once the public figured out that they could vote for politicians that promised them the most from the public treasury.
Sir, if you have the time, I recommend you read the Constitution and as you do it, try to get in the heads of the framers and see why they did what they did. What was their vision? Why did they not want power centralized in the Federal Gov't but rather concentrated at the State level? Ask yourself, "Why did they give us Separation of Powers?" What were they attempting to achieve with it as well as prevent?
They were geniuses. They knew we would be having these discussions. Jefferson even remarked that we would from time to time have rebellions and he saw them as a good thing. He did not want to see revolution... just a rebellion to keep Washington on its toes and our politicians honest.
While in Paris, Jefferson wrote: "The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure." -- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787
"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
I am not advocating revolution. I am simply saying we have departed from the Constitution and vision of our founding fathers and we need to return to it. This is not crazy; it is not radical.
There are ways to do this, but do YOU have the stomach to sacrifice to preserve our liberties and ensure America remains a free country? [rhetorical] When you are given orders to fire on American citizens exercising their Consitutional rights, will you obey? [rhetorical].
Sir, if you have the time, I recommend you read the Constitution and as you do it, try to get in the heads of the framers and see why they did what they did. What was their vision? Why did they not want power centralized in the Federal Gov't but rather concentrated at the State level? Ask yourself, "Why did they give us Separation of Powers?" What were they attempting to achieve with it as well as prevent?
They were geniuses. They knew we would be having these discussions. Jefferson even remarked that we would from time to time have rebellions and he saw them as a good thing. He did not want to see revolution... just a rebellion to keep Washington on its toes and our politicians honest.
While in Paris, Jefferson wrote: "The people can not be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions it is a lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. We have had 13. states independant 11. years. There has been one rebellion. That comes to one rebellion in a century and a half for each state. What country ever existed a century and a half without a rebellion? And what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is it's natural manure." -- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, Paris, 13 Nov. 1787
"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government."
I am not advocating revolution. I am simply saying we have departed from the Constitution and vision of our founding fathers and we need to return to it. This is not crazy; it is not radical.
There are ways to do this, but do YOU have the stomach to sacrifice to preserve our liberties and ensure America remains a free country? [rhetorical] When you are given orders to fire on American citizens exercising their Consitutional rights, will you obey? [rhetorical].
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Cpl (Join to see)
My take on the whole debacle is the first amendment. Part 5 of the first amendment is the right "to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." The birth issue is a legitimate grievance in my opinion.
Secondly, Capt Jeff S. is correct regarding the approval of a Security clearance in that the C&C is a known associate of William Ayers a founder of the Weather Underground, which is a huge red flag.
Lastly, by birth to a father who was a British subject, since Kenya was a British Commonwealth until October 1963, makes BO a British subject under the British Nationality Act of 1948. I believe the question needs to be answered.
Secondly, Capt Jeff S. is correct regarding the approval of a Security clearance in that the C&C is a known associate of William Ayers a founder of the Weather Underground, which is a huge red flag.
Lastly, by birth to a father who was a British subject, since Kenya was a British Commonwealth until October 1963, makes BO a British subject under the British Nationality Act of 1948. I believe the question needs to be answered.
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LTC Barry Hull
Don't know, but I find CPT Schwager to be arrogant and a bit unprofessional. And before you jump on me, yes I have read the constitution..about three times. Still that's not enough. If you want to find the deeper intent behind the Constitution, you need the Federalist papers which contain the debate as our framers wrote the Constitution. As far as whether or not the POTUS should be required t pass a background check, well, that a matter of law and the collective opinions mean nothing.
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Suspended Profile
Capt Schwager,
I would call CID re fraud in seeking his commission. But, you are having us on . . . right?
Warmest Regards, Sandy
The photo and description strongly resemble Lt. William Laws Calley, Jr . . . found guilty by Courts Martial of murdering 22 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians in the My Lai Massacre.
Please keep in mind that of 26 officers and soldiers charged in his chain of command, only Calley was convicted. Many believe Calley was just a scapegoat. President Nixon ultimately issued Calley a limited pardon that upheld general courts martial conviction and dismissal from the Army but commuted the prison sentence and parole obligations to time served.
I would call CID re fraud in seeking his commission. But, you are having us on . . . right?
Warmest Regards, Sandy
The photo and description strongly resemble Lt. William Laws Calley, Jr . . . found guilty by Courts Martial of murdering 22 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians in the My Lai Massacre.
Please keep in mind that of 26 officers and soldiers charged in his chain of command, only Calley was convicted. Many believe Calley was just a scapegoat. President Nixon ultimately issued Calley a limited pardon that upheld general courts martial conviction and dismissal from the Army but commuted the prison sentence and parole obligations to time served.
CW2 Ernest Krutzsch
I was in the Army during that time, there were many Lieutenants who weren't ready for leading (Hence Fragging), when you are an OCS wonder and they put you in charge of people who have been in country for 2-3 years, and the Lieutenant shows up with the I have all the answers attitude, I went to Ranger School! Well whoopty do. You have to earn respect, the fact you are wearing a gold bar says nothing
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Suspended Profile
CW2 Ernest Krutzsch. Amen!!! Gold/Silver Bars do not make a leader . . . must be molded by experience . . . regrettably experience is acquired at tremendous cost . . . and the best leaders tend to be those who have far more experience in country. Warmest Regards, Sandy
CW2 Ernest Krutzsch
Ah, as a Warrant, I have many more examples, and we should not just pick on Lieutenants, I have seen Captains, Majors, LTC, and Colonels with the same attitude. When I was a young E5, I had some Lieutenants that were furious at the political and personal decisions that were being made by higher headquarters, they swore they would never do that... Fast forward 20 years, they are Colonels, making the same stupid decisions they swore they would never make. It's a system! I had some great Officer's I worked for, most of them did not get promoted, because they did not toe the line. I would have followed them anywhere, those who did get promoted forgot where they came from
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CPT (Join to see)
Gold/Silver Bar; Train Tracks, or Oak Leaves don't make Leaders, just the same for the NCO Corps.
But to answer the original question, I would rat him out to CID even if anonymously.
But to answer the original question, I would rat him out to CID even if anonymously.
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Capt Jeff Schwager that is a good question. Take him out get him drunk set him up with some strippers and get lot's of pictures?
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Cpl Brett Wagner
SSgt Justyn Amick I like to think of it as creative problem solving. Adapt, improvise, over come.
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LTC Barry Hull
Not sure that would help. He admitted he smoked weed. BLUF: you can buy votes with government give-away programs.
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Sir,
Is this the plot of a movie? Seems pretty extreme and crazy. If it's not I hope justice is served, whatever that may be.
Is this the plot of a movie? Seems pretty extreme and crazy. If it's not I hope justice is served, whatever that may be.
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Capt Jeff S.
CPT (Join to see), Why don't you thump your chest a little harder. Your "Do You Know Who I Am" response to SSgt (Join to see) was pretty pathetic. While I can respect the fact that you led men in battle, your use of that experience to attempt to one-up Justyn was shamefully inappropriate and uncalled for.
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CPT (Join to see)
Capt Jeff S. Sometimes you just got to make a smart remark. Is it professional, probably not. But I will take the down vote with stride.
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LTC Barry Hull
Eric, he got you on that one. Always take the high rode but I have noted that CAPT Schwager seems to enjoys pointing fingers at others. he needs to listen to his own advice.
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Wow, I agree with CPT (Join to see) this sounds like some kind of good movie plot. The likelihood of all these circumstances coming together would be quite astronomical, but if you break it down, each piece demonstrates the absence of scruples, ethics and morals that we see every day in all levels of the system. The "system' is allowed to continue on, broken, corrupt and dysfunctional because it suits the power brokers. Those that question the "system" or those in control are targeted and labeled - "whistle blowers", "trouble makers" and "non-conformists" These people are then "vanished" or "excused" from the system so as not to spread further dissent.
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Cpl Brett Wagner
Cadet CPT Ryan McConville Just remember rank does not always equate to wisdom and especially the ability to be a leader. Listen to your senior NCOs, most of them are senior NCOs for a reason not all of them but I think most.
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Stand for something or fall for anything. He is wrong, and you need to exercise personal courage to protect and serve the military and its Soldiers best. If you know that it is true, and you allow this man to lead Soldiers in combat, then you are part of the problem. You probably wish you didn't know, but now that you do, you are bound by army values and common sense to stop this fool before he gets Soldiers killed. Do the right thing.
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Forged documents are a no go and will not only give him UCMJ but will but others under investigation. You go to up the chain until someone listens because if it is found you knew and did nothing (or you can't prove you did sonething) you can find yourself in hot water.
The only thing is going to be do you have evidence...I can only imagine repercussions if the accusation is false.
The only thing is going to be do you have evidence...I can only imagine repercussions if the accusation is false.
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Blanket party comes to mind, but since officers don't sleep with the enlisted that route is unlikely. It seems to me like the orders given by the CO are illegal. I question the CO's ability because he is willing to put politics above unit safety and mission success. The CO is not the last person in my chain of command.
If the CO is not willing to do something then an anonymous letter to the press in the Senators home state explaining the details could do some good. One thing is certain, Senators do not like bad publicity.
If none of the above worked, I would be trying everything I could to transfer out, however, I would not feel right leaving all my buddies behind.
Since said Lieutenant is not capable of thinking for himself, and really has no clue about what he is doing, the chances of him having an accident in the field or combat is greatly increased.
I think the route I would most likely take is risk my own career and do everything I can to expose the Lieutenant. Saving the lives of my fellow service members is much more important than saving my own career, at least they will be alive and I would be able to sleep with myself at night.
If the CO is not willing to do something then an anonymous letter to the press in the Senators home state explaining the details could do some good. One thing is certain, Senators do not like bad publicity.
If none of the above worked, I would be trying everything I could to transfer out, however, I would not feel right leaving all my buddies behind.
Since said Lieutenant is not capable of thinking for himself, and really has no clue about what he is doing, the chances of him having an accident in the field or combat is greatly increased.
I think the route I would most likely take is risk my own career and do everything I can to expose the Lieutenant. Saving the lives of my fellow service members is much more important than saving my own career, at least they will be alive and I would be able to sleep with myself at night.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
I see the parallels sir. It appears to be a no win situation. But rolling over is not the way for things to change. Hoping things will improve by ignoring the situation never works.
Public awareness and support can put pressure on the press and congress to act to right a wrong. The press depends on advertising dollars and if General public speaks, that outranks any officer or congressman.
Public awareness and support can put pressure on the press and congress to act to right a wrong. The press depends on advertising dollars and if General public speaks, that outranks any officer or congressman.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
I will add this sir. I remind you of what my last sentence says. I am working toward a degree in journalism. I do not like what journalism has become, and I do not like how the main stream media has become the propaganda branch of government.
My job as a journalist is to expose the truth, not propaganda, not agenda, and definitely not to side with any political ideologies. I would take the cause of the service member and try to get their story to the public.
My job as a journalist is to expose the truth, not propaganda, not agenda, and definitely not to side with any political ideologies. I would take the cause of the service member and try to get their story to the public.
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I would call Jason Bourne who would initiate contact with his overseas contact, James Bond, to facilitate immediate infiltration of the compound. Bourne would then enlist the help of Jack Bauer to take hostage the rogue Senator (presumably whilst the Armed Services Committee is in session), commandeer a helicopter, and fly the tainted Senator to the compound to confront his son and illicit lieutenant.
Once Chloe had uploaded the video of the young wayward lieutenant's taped confession to CTU Los Angeles (via satellite uplink from a laptop at a coffee shop in San Bernadino), they would transmit a live-feed to the Situation Room in the White House where the Joint Chiefs would conveniently be in session in full dress regalia with the POTUS, who would then deploy the finest group of fighting men on the planet to restore order on the Army compound: SEAL Team SIX.
The SEALs arrive post-haste and immediately the problem is solved. Jack Bauer has a meltdown, decapitates the corrupt Senator with a concealed samurai sword, and turns himself in. The young lieutenant craps his pants at the news of his biological benefactor's demise and Jason Bourne escapes to Sri Lanka to take a job as a bar-back to lay low. The SEALs are given under-the-table Navy Crosses and order is restored. Win-win.
Not saying I'm right. That's just what I would do.
Once Chloe had uploaded the video of the young wayward lieutenant's taped confession to CTU Los Angeles (via satellite uplink from a laptop at a coffee shop in San Bernadino), they would transmit a live-feed to the Situation Room in the White House where the Joint Chiefs would conveniently be in session in full dress regalia with the POTUS, who would then deploy the finest group of fighting men on the planet to restore order on the Army compound: SEAL Team SIX.
The SEALs arrive post-haste and immediately the problem is solved. Jack Bauer has a meltdown, decapitates the corrupt Senator with a concealed samurai sword, and turns himself in. The young lieutenant craps his pants at the news of his biological benefactor's demise and Jason Bourne escapes to Sri Lanka to take a job as a bar-back to lay low. The SEALs are given under-the-table Navy Crosses and order is restored. Win-win.
Not saying I'm right. That's just what I would do.
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Capt. Schwager,
I had the son of a prominent Senator (the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee) in my Company in VN (2nd tour). Both now deceased and this was in late 69 early 70 in case you are trying to figure out who it is. i passed the info on thru the Chain and also to the Army CID and they handled it perfectly. He was fraud, a thief, and a liar. He got some time in Leavenworth for it. I did get some Congressional Inquiries and letters written to the Division CG but to his credit he let it be handled at the lowest level. I have a picture of the CG pinning on one of my BS"V"s. Great memories of times gone past.
And as for the picture, I believe it to be Lt. Patrick Calley. I was a CO (IOBC) at Ft. Benning in 68-69 while his trial was going on. He didn't get what he deserved.
The lesson to be learned here is do what you can within the limits of your ability and if it doesn't work out, you did your best. Suck It Up and Drive On!
I had the son of a prominent Senator (the ranking member of the Senate Armed Services Committee) in my Company in VN (2nd tour). Both now deceased and this was in late 69 early 70 in case you are trying to figure out who it is. i passed the info on thru the Chain and also to the Army CID and they handled it perfectly. He was fraud, a thief, and a liar. He got some time in Leavenworth for it. I did get some Congressional Inquiries and letters written to the Division CG but to his credit he let it be handled at the lowest level. I have a picture of the CG pinning on one of my BS"V"s. Great memories of times gone past.
And as for the picture, I believe it to be Lt. Patrick Calley. I was a CO (IOBC) at Ft. Benning in 68-69 while his trial was going on. He didn't get what he deserved.
The lesson to be learned here is do what you can within the limits of your ability and if it doesn't work out, you did your best. Suck It Up and Drive On!
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