Posted on Jan 2, 2015
Fraternization and the Reserves - Where is the line?
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This question may very well apply to Active Duty as well, as it leads to some larger ones of, "What actually constitutes fraternization / what is the intent?"
However, I address the larger issue to the Reserve components. When a Reserve Servicemember is only "on duty" one weekend a month, can you expect the same fraternization policies? More specifically, what if two people share a civilian work relationship, but also a military reservist one? Our TPU Soldiers call each other by first names, or "Mister", when not at Drill, often regardless of rank. That even includes one LTC, because during the week he is "Mister so-and-so the UA" not "LTC So-and-so." Thus, can he really be told he can't socialize with his coworkers because they, too, happen to be Reservists? Or, should there be more relaxed standards in the Reserves, so long as it doesn't disrupt order and discipline?
However, I address the larger issue to the Reserve components. When a Reserve Servicemember is only "on duty" one weekend a month, can you expect the same fraternization policies? More specifically, what if two people share a civilian work relationship, but also a military reservist one? Our TPU Soldiers call each other by first names, or "Mister", when not at Drill, often regardless of rank. That even includes one LTC, because during the week he is "Mister so-and-so the UA" not "LTC So-and-so." Thus, can he really be told he can't socialize with his coworkers because they, too, happen to be Reservists? Or, should there be more relaxed standards in the Reserves, so long as it doesn't disrupt order and discipline?
Posted in these groups: 
Fraternization
Ethics
Fraternization Ethics
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 54
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Like any job, sometimes the enemy is the one you sleep with. It's up to you to own what your willing to lose for a night or day of fun.
Just my thoughts.
Just my thoughts.
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I think the issue with the dual-status soldiers should really be left up to them to police it themselves. For example, Mister so-and-so should be enforcing that people address him properly as SGT so-and-so on drill weekends.
Fraternization should also be consistent among components. I'm a firm believer that you are NOT going to meet your "soul mate" on a 2 week ECT or battle assembly, and have personally watched the drama ensue from soldiers dating themselves and creating problems that the rest of the unit has to pick up after (keeping them separated during a fights, disputes, ex's drama, etc).
Things can get blurry, but we all have to remember that even though you're TPU you're still subject to the same standards and ramifications regardless if you're on or off duty. If you're busted in a domestic violence while "off duty" on a non-drill weekday, you can still get in trouble with the Army. Same things with DUI's, sexual assaults, even some first amendment issues as well. I don't see how fraternization should be different, it's just a lot more difficult to police.
There's billions of people in the world... I'm sure they can find someone else. lol
Fraternization should also be consistent among components. I'm a firm believer that you are NOT going to meet your "soul mate" on a 2 week ECT or battle assembly, and have personally watched the drama ensue from soldiers dating themselves and creating problems that the rest of the unit has to pick up after (keeping them separated during a fights, disputes, ex's drama, etc).
Things can get blurry, but we all have to remember that even though you're TPU you're still subject to the same standards and ramifications regardless if you're on or off duty. If you're busted in a domestic violence while "off duty" on a non-drill weekday, you can still get in trouble with the Army. Same things with DUI's, sexual assaults, even some first amendment issues as well. I don't see how fraternization should be different, it's just a lot more difficult to police.
There's billions of people in the world... I'm sure they can find someone else. lol
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I think they should lax the standards for everyone. So far I have seen 6 relationships that were inappropriate but ended in marriage. Nothing was ever said or done about it. No reprimands. Not even a slap on the wrist. Why have these standards of they are never enforced?
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This is tricky because of how the reserve component works. What if you and your buddy work togther on the civilian side he brought you in. Your friend is a O4 and you enlist as a E3. When you go to drill there should be a different relationship then when you are outside the drill hall. It is complicated due to the fact you have to be disciplined enough to do both not easy as your post above shows.
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1LT (Join to see)
My best friend joined the Army 10 years after I did and ended up at my unit as an O1 (I'm an E6). He and I met in the 3rd grade and have been friends since. After trying to be in the same unit together, I ended up taking an assignment at a different unit because it was very difficult for us to maintain a "professional" relationship because of our history.
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While I've read all of the replies (to the point of my opinion issuance) I must say from personal experience: fraternization is fraternization is fraternization. In spite of the AR-600 reference by LTC Yinon Weiss and it's obvious reasons for it's existence I have never found that a close personal relationship with a boss to be a good thing in respect to good order and discipline in a military unit. It does not matter under what circumstances: should the boss be the boss both in a military AD scenario or in a civilian scenario or any combination of the two you can imagine - it just doesn't work, period. Let me sum it up simply: The mere APPEARANCE of impropriety creates the fact in most people's eyes. In my lifetime I've seen, observed and had to deal with just about every single possible combination (have NOT had to deal with the person/doll relationship yet) of close personal realtionships between senior and subordinate in every military/civilian, military/military, civilian/civilian, AD/RES, AD/NG, ad nauseum - you name it, I've probably had to deal with it. From the standpoint of the guy on the outside of the relationship (me) dealing with either/both of the individuals in the relationship - it's a losing proposition when it comes to me having to maintain discipline and good order with either (yes, enlisted do chastise officers - it happens all the time) in either the military scenario or the civilain scenario. From my observations - and these are only mine - when one is dealing with the heart, the folks on the outside of that relationship lose - period.
I have yet to meet a couple that can truely maintain proper order and discipline if they are working together - and I've met thousands.
'Nuff said.
Off soapbox.
I have yet to meet a couple that can truely maintain proper order and discipline if they are working together - and I've met thousands.
'Nuff said.
Off soapbox.
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I consider myself a soldier first, even though the Army designates me a Reservist.
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LTC Patrick Turner
I agree. Do what is reasonable and appropriate and you won't have to worry about being called out. Period.
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Reminds me of either Reagan or Bush 41's SECNAV who was also a LtCdr USNR Aviator.
One year when he took off to NAS Oceana, a member of the 4th estate asked if it was
awkward being SECNAV and going to Annual Training, he said "heck, no, I'm just one of the guys down there." Then he allowed he did get some visits from Flag Officers that other guys in Squadron did not, lol
One year when he took off to NAS Oceana, a member of the 4th estate asked if it was
awkward being SECNAV and going to Annual Training, he said "heck, no, I'm just one of the guys down there." Then he allowed he did get some visits from Flag Officers that other guys in Squadron did not, lol
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The regs should be consistent, and people should be professional enough to realize that "off-duty" activity involving other servicemembers affects the time you are "on-duty."
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SGT (Join to see)
1LT Nick Kidwell , I have to agree and disagree with you. I disagree with your notion of consistency but agree with you on the fact that "off duty" affecting "on duty" but for different reasons.
First, if I'm a Sgt in the reserves but I've been at my civilian career for a few years and am in a management position and I receive a new employee from HR and they happen to be a SSgt in my unit, should I not continue to take charge and be a manager over that Marine? Or should I concede to let him be my boss even though he is brand new but is higher ranking than I?
I agree that off duty affects on duty but I think it can have a positive effect. I mentioned earlier that I worked with a junior Marine in a civilian job. This had a positive effect on our professional work environment in the Marine Corps because I was able to see more of his work ethic and attitude vs. 1 weekend a month. This, in turn, made me see that he was a very good Marine and civilian at the same time.
First, if I'm a Sgt in the reserves but I've been at my civilian career for a few years and am in a management position and I receive a new employee from HR and they happen to be a SSgt in my unit, should I not continue to take charge and be a manager over that Marine? Or should I concede to let him be my boss even though he is brand new but is higher ranking than I?
I agree that off duty affects on duty but I think it can have a positive effect. I mentioned earlier that I worked with a junior Marine in a civilian job. This had a positive effect on our professional work environment in the Marine Corps because I was able to see more of his work ethic and attitude vs. 1 weekend a month. This, in turn, made me see that he was a very good Marine and civilian at the same time.
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1LT Nick Kidwell
@Sgt Jordan Vied - Which is where my comment "people should be professional enough to realize that 'off-duty' activity involving other servicemembers affects the time you are 'on-duty'" comes in.
I have seen situations where the civilian life of two soldiers messed up their military life. Like the SFC who started dating a female SSG in his platoon. The same SFC who had a best bud who later was a PFC in his platoon. A different SFC who bossed around other servicemembers at their civilian employment despite being at the same responsibility level simply because he was thier PSG while at drill.
I have also seen leadership look the other way while such things happened.
I know it can work just fine, and it's simply one of those unique challenges that the reserve component faces. It all comes down to individual integrity and professionalism.
I have seen situations where the civilian life of two soldiers messed up their military life. Like the SFC who started dating a female SSG in his platoon. The same SFC who had a best bud who later was a PFC in his platoon. A different SFC who bossed around other servicemembers at their civilian employment despite being at the same responsibility level simply because he was thier PSG while at drill.
I have also seen leadership look the other way while such things happened.
I know it can work just fine, and it's simply one of those unique challenges that the reserve component faces. It all comes down to individual integrity and professionalism.
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Personal opinion follows: I feel that fraternization is a long held division based on the historical class difference between officers and enlisted. I honestly believe that fraternization should removed (no different than segregation or DADT) and leave the existing unprofessional relationship rules in place. The rules ideally should be equal across all service branches and all components.
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CPT (Join to see)
We were having a discussion along these lines in my Ethics Course.
If the goal is good order and discipline, along with fairness, I hardly see how socializing, in and of itself, corrupts that any more than what IS allowed. I have had Soldiers who attend the same church as me, and I know their families, beliefs, backgrounds, etc. far better than I do others, and I know that would (even subconsciously) affect my decisions regarding them in a downrange atmosphere. However, I always felt what made a good leader is being able to put aside those biases and be fair and consistent.
If the goal is good order and discipline, along with fairness, I hardly see how socializing, in and of itself, corrupts that any more than what IS allowed. I have had Soldiers who attend the same church as me, and I know their families, beliefs, backgrounds, etc. far better than I do others, and I know that would (even subconsciously) affect my decisions regarding them in a downrange atmosphere. However, I always felt what made a good leader is being able to put aside those biases and be fair and consistent.
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TSgt Joshua Copeland
My arguement is that really is a professional/unprofessional relationship issue rather than a fraternization issue. That same thing could be applied to a SNCO and a Junior Enlisted member.
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