Posted on Sep 8, 2014
Fraternization: Playing Poker Officer & Enlisted
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I love to play poker and I find it to be a great social game that can be a lot of fun. I host poker nights at my house about every 4 weeks, and we have a blast. Of course, there are some stakes ($10 a game) just to make it interesting enough to play. Without the money, there really isn't a point in playing poker.
Anyways, I would love it if I could play with some enlisted troops. I have a lot of friends who are enlisted, and the fact that I can't invite them really sucks.
My point is this: Should it be a violation of the fraternization policy if you play poker with mixed Troops, even if those Troops are not above or below you in your unit/chain of command?
I know that you can mix and match the ranks in a money game if it's a tournament that awards prizes instead of cash, while the take goes to a charity. If I were to do that, would I have to request permission from someone beforehand? I can't really find the answers to these questions so I am hoping some NCOs can help me out here.
Also, it's legal to play poker with an officer/enlisted if it's at a public casino. At least, how would anyone know unless you were in uniform... which you can't be in that case anyways.
Also,
Anyways, I would love it if I could play with some enlisted troops. I have a lot of friends who are enlisted, and the fact that I can't invite them really sucks.
My point is this: Should it be a violation of the fraternization policy if you play poker with mixed Troops, even if those Troops are not above or below you in your unit/chain of command?
I know that you can mix and match the ranks in a money game if it's a tournament that awards prizes instead of cash, while the take goes to a charity. If I were to do that, would I have to request permission from someone beforehand? I can't really find the answers to these questions so I am hoping some NCOs can help me out here.
Also, it's legal to play poker with an officer/enlisted if it's at a public casino. At least, how would anyone know unless you were in uniform... which you can't be in that case anyways.
Also,
Poker
Fraternization
Enlisted
Officer
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 41
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I think in your case Chief,it would be OK as long as the game was played with nothing more than chips and no money on the line.May not be as interesting as playing for money,bu you would still be able to get together with your enlisted friends without the worry of it looking improper.
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Sir, I see absolutely no problem in a public casino, anyone with the appropriate stake is able to sit at any table there. A game hosted at a private home (with the specific intent of having a poker game) may be a slippery slope even if there isn't anything specifically sited in regulations. Perception is reality in our world and it could very well create a negative perception, especially if someone feels 'slighted' by not being invited or if there is the perception of preferential treatment of someone who did play.
Bottom line, as much as I hate to say it, I believe it would be best to not include enlisted in games at a private home.
Bottom line, as much as I hate to say it, I believe it would be best to not include enlisted in games at a private home.
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Are you talking about competing in a poker tournament? That might be acceptable, but it still seems dicey.
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I was put in a position of guys in the unit gambling with supervisors and subordinates. I did not play in this games, I saw to much gray when you are gambling with supervisors and subordinates. But then I was threatened if I informed on what was happening. I was labeled as anti social because I did not play. I just thought guys that were playing in these games were putting themselves at risk.
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I have played poker in mixed company many times. Rank went from Senior NCO’s to Field Grade. It was a given that there was no rank during the game.
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There's a WWII cartoon by Bill Mauldin in which an officer in a line unit announces that he needs a couple of troops who don't owe him any money to go on a routine patrol. Any extracurricular activity that might impact your professional obligations to your Soldiers is the wrong answer.
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For what's its worth, I don't plan on associating with enlisted personnel outside of work once I cross over to the dark side. Unless I knew them before hand.
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I think I can say that fortunately the fraternization rule with Coasties tends to be rather relaxed since we're such a small service, so we don't often see issues arise from it unless there is a harassment or abuse case. I also see that it can be much harder reaching out to enlisted than vice versa since you're then putting yourself out there to be thrown on the bus, whereas an grunt is typical just told, "No." But id say if you can make it happen as a unit morale gig, NO MONEY. As an Officer, you can issue morale-approved 'leave tickets' or tees, that kind of deal. In-unit is always the safest and most easily approved event between ranks, from what I've seen (also raised a Coastie brat, so I'm not the average youngin', haha)
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The way we would get around this in the Navy would be to invite your entire division to your poker party and clearly state in the invite that there is a "suggested $10 donation."
That way everyone is invited, even if some choose not to attend, and there is no clear cut violation of the fraternization policy.
That way everyone is invited, even if some choose not to attend, and there is no clear cut violation of the fraternization policy.
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Yes, among other things.
While I was in, I played golf, allot of golf! I didn't play with to many enlisted, not sure why they didn't play as uch as officers. But we got a new command and they started to push this fraternization crap. The issue is when there is immature people that can't seperate work from home. I had cook outs with NCO's and played golf with Officers, yet at work they still got the respect.
It's about the individuals not the rank, older E-4 will have more in common with NCO's than newer enlisted soldiers.
While I was in, I played golf, allot of golf! I didn't play with to many enlisted, not sure why they didn't play as uch as officers. But we got a new command and they started to push this fraternization crap. The issue is when there is immature people that can't seperate work from home. I had cook outs with NCO's and played golf with Officers, yet at work they still got the respect.
It's about the individuals not the rank, older E-4 will have more in common with NCO's than newer enlisted soldiers.
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