Posted on Aug 18, 2017
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Every time I returned a salute, it was a reminder of my responsibilities to every subordinate. For those who don't like saluting junior officers, it may help if you try to view it as reminding that young officer of their responsibility.
Customs and Courtesies
Saluting
2d Lt
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 14
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I am not sure a lot of veterans realize it, but if you are a veteran, saluting during the playing of the National Anthem is now accepted. Due to the fact I am retired from the IS Army I salute during the National Anthem even while in civilian clothing. So if you see an old guy rendering a snappy salute during the playing of the National anthem, it might be me.
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Sorry, had to chuckle a bit. As a fresh caught Ensign, I saluted anything lest I get "corrected". CPOs would smile at me when they saluted knowing I was new. I'm a Mustang so would always say "Good morning Chief" or similar. I made it a point to return salutes to ENLs properly because I remembered how I was (mis) treated as an ENL. Saluting seniors was a mixed bag. So many O-4s that really wished you weren't there so they wouldn't be bothered with returning a salute. So I guess my feelings have morphed over the years. One thing I did notice. My salutes were more deliberate and responsive as I rose in rank. Never too busy to spend a moment acknowledging juniors. That brief contact helps remember names to the faces. And it gives a moment for that compliment to percolate up. My chuckles surround my brief time at USMA where we Cadets would have different traffic patterns than the upperclassmen and officers to avoid having to damage the rotator cuff. When I visited West Point when I was an O-6, I laughed more. I could see the tradition of the Cadets continuing but noted the officers had their purposeful pattern too. Looked like a wallflower convention at the prom.
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One of my better Commanders once said to me "Weav, if all the respect I've earned from you can be summed up with some silly hand gesture... then you can keep it."
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Maj John Bell, I’m curious; how did you feel when a junior failed to initiate a salute to you? Did you take it personally? Did you believe it was a sign that that junior was implying that you were not worthy of your commission? Or, did you just assume some junior was just not paying attention to his surroundings?
You mentioned not seeing posts on RP where officers complain about saluting juniors or for those matter seniors. I’m sure you haven’t, just as there was not much complaining from the Lords about the feudal system. Officers are the beneficiaries of the salute and therefore don’t have the same perspective as an enlisted person. I’ve heard the justification for the salute, mutual respect and all that. But, as a former enlisted man I can tell you that’s not what it means to most enlisted personnel. It’s degrading, not the most degrading thing that could ever happen; but, on at least a microscopic level, degrading and it builds resentment.
Of course, not all salutes were the same.
You mentioned not seeing posts on RP where officers complain about saluting juniors or for those matter seniors. I’m sure you haven’t, just as there was not much complaining from the Lords about the feudal system. Officers are the beneficiaries of the salute and therefore don’t have the same perspective as an enlisted person. I’ve heard the justification for the salute, mutual respect and all that. But, as a former enlisted man I can tell you that’s not what it means to most enlisted personnel. It’s degrading, not the most degrading thing that could ever happen; but, on at least a microscopic level, degrading and it builds resentment.
Of course, not all salutes were the same.
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Maj John Bell
Sgt Jim H. -
“Read my first paragraph again. I didn’t state that no plan is necessary. I stated, no plan is necessary if surviving an encounter with the enemy is only by chance.”
_ I disagree, you stated “That’s a cliché, some plans must survive contact with the enemy otherwise no one ever survived contact with the enemy except by chance. If that’s true, no plan for the enemy is necessary.” No I don’t think you were suggesting that not being prepared for combat was a strategy for combat. I think you were dismissing my point with sarcasm, instead of a solid argument.
“training and strategy are plans.”
_ I disagree, Training is development of proficiency at technique. Tactics, Operations, Strategy, and Strategy are theoretical in nature and are situational in nature. Leadership is necessary to continually asses and adjust. Trying to come to a consensus when the strategy/plan is no longer appropriate cannot wait while consensus is built. Are you familiar with the OODA Loop? Observe – Orient – Decide – Act, who ever has the shortest OODA loop typically achieves the most favorable outcome in combat.
Different missions require different rank structures. Law enforcement has no requirement to cover the full spectrum of combat from sustained low-intensity conflict, small unit, asymmetrical warfare to conventional combined arms maneuver warfare between nations. Nor does your single career pipeline account for technical and leadership split pipelines that already exist in the military as evidenced by the senior SNCO leadership and technical split; the Warrant officer pipeline; and the line officer and LDO split.
“I’m not a retired goat farmer yet.”
-You have no idea what my hours are like. I am retired from the military. Not retired from working. Farming is a full time occupation. There is no need for you to get snarky, particularly when you are clearly out of your wheelhouse guessing at the hours I put into farming.
“If you’re referring to the act of trading lead…”
-That is precisely the engagement to which I refer. There is a connection between many military customs that are intended to create an environment of immediate intelligent obedience, regardless of one’s opinion of the order, or the person issuing the order. The reason barriers to fraternization, and class distinction are in place is not for the ego of the officer. It is for discipline on the field.
"On the topic of “social superiority;” examine the differences between enlisted and commissioned pay scales..."
- Plt Ldrship Typical 2ndLt <2 Base Pay $3034 Typical SSgt (USMC) > 8 Base Pay $3382
“Examine the differences between housing.”
-Every Duty Station I served at, housing that was constructed at about the same time used the same floor plan and finishes for Junior SNCO’s and Company Grade Officer’s and the same floor plan and finishes for Senior SNCO’s and Field Grade Officer’s.
I am not sure what your point is on uniform accoutrements. Enlisted personnel receive an initial set of uniforms issued and then received a clothing maintenance allowance. Officers pay for their uniforms out of pocket, and do not receive a clothing maintenance allowance. In addition the uniforms are 3-5 times the cost of the equivalent Enlisted uniform in any given class (other than utilities).
I don’t know if we agree or not on decorations. I think there are way too many “participation” and “end of tour” awards and that awards should be limited to individual awards and unit awards where the person served at least 1/3 to ½ the period for which the unit award was received.
“How about military courts martial? Ever notice that a jury can be of all commissioned officers or it can include some enlisted personnel; but it can’t be comprised of only enlisted personnel even if an enlisted man is on trial.” Ever notice that Privates don’t sit on juries for NCO’s and NCO’s don’t sit on juries for SNCO’s. Military juries never include personnel junior in rank to the accused.
“Junior Officers do not have the luxury of knowing they will rise in rank.”
-Unless the system has changed, at least in the USMC, no junior officer receives a regular commission. They receive reserve commissions. At the end of four years, if they have not been “augmented,” with a regular commission, they are ineligible for promotion to Captain and will be dismissed at the end of their obligation. When I was a junior officer, the augmentation rate was about 65%. The Promotion rate to Captain was about 80% of those who had augmented to Captain.
“Enlisted men have no opportunity to rise through the ranks to senior officer status.”
-When I was commissioned, about 25% of all junior officers commissioned were prior enlisted. Once commissioned, unless as a warrant officer or LDO, their promotion rates are no different than any other officer with the same time in grade.
Notable Mustangs of the 20th and 21st Century (The list is not all inclusive)
• Admiral Jeremy Boorda US Navy
• Major General Robin Fontes US Army
• General John W. Foss US Army
• General Tommy Franks US Marine Corps
• General Alfred M Gray 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps from 1987-91
• General Courtney Hodges US Army
• General James Mattis US Marine Corps
• Major General Lewis Burwell “Chesty” Puller US Marine Corps
• General John Shalikashvili US Army
• Major General Clarence A. Shoop US Air Force
• General Larry O. Spencer US Air Force
• General John W. Vesey US Army
• General Larry D. Welch US Air Force
• Brigadier General Chuck Yeager US Air Force
“Examine the mechanics of the salute, the enlisted man has the burden of initiating the salute; then he holds his salute until the officer salutes. Then the officer must cut before the enlisted man, who initiated the salute, is allowed to unburden himself and cut his salute.” Enlisted personnel outnumber officers typically 10-30 times on any given base that is not an officer’s school command. And typically at school commands, there is limited contact between students and permanent personnel. Do you believe that on a typical day, you rendered anywhere near the same number of salutes as the typical company grade officer? I don’t really think it is a burden to anyone.
“Let me ask you, is the identity of an officer tied to the salute?” No, but life and death do turn on immediate, intelligent, obedience. I believe saluting has some minor effect of reinforcing that.
“If it went away right now would it tear the military apart?” No but it is one step further away from immediate, intelligent obedience; Once step closer to a bunch of armed civilians.
“I’ve read articles about newly commissioned officers seeking out retired family members from whom to receive a salute.” If such a thing happens, I doubt it is about putting the retired family member in “their place.”
“Have you ever noticed you've never heard stories about enlisted men seeking out officers to salute.” Yes, my older brother, and active duty Army SFC positioned himself just off the dais when I was commissioned so he could be the first enlisted man to salute me.
“Read my first paragraph again. I didn’t state that no plan is necessary. I stated, no plan is necessary if surviving an encounter with the enemy is only by chance.”
_ I disagree, you stated “That’s a cliché, some plans must survive contact with the enemy otherwise no one ever survived contact with the enemy except by chance. If that’s true, no plan for the enemy is necessary.” No I don’t think you were suggesting that not being prepared for combat was a strategy for combat. I think you were dismissing my point with sarcasm, instead of a solid argument.
“training and strategy are plans.”
_ I disagree, Training is development of proficiency at technique. Tactics, Operations, Strategy, and Strategy are theoretical in nature and are situational in nature. Leadership is necessary to continually asses and adjust. Trying to come to a consensus when the strategy/plan is no longer appropriate cannot wait while consensus is built. Are you familiar with the OODA Loop? Observe – Orient – Decide – Act, who ever has the shortest OODA loop typically achieves the most favorable outcome in combat.
Different missions require different rank structures. Law enforcement has no requirement to cover the full spectrum of combat from sustained low-intensity conflict, small unit, asymmetrical warfare to conventional combined arms maneuver warfare between nations. Nor does your single career pipeline account for technical and leadership split pipelines that already exist in the military as evidenced by the senior SNCO leadership and technical split; the Warrant officer pipeline; and the line officer and LDO split.
“I’m not a retired goat farmer yet.”
-You have no idea what my hours are like. I am retired from the military. Not retired from working. Farming is a full time occupation. There is no need for you to get snarky, particularly when you are clearly out of your wheelhouse guessing at the hours I put into farming.
“If you’re referring to the act of trading lead…”
-That is precisely the engagement to which I refer. There is a connection between many military customs that are intended to create an environment of immediate intelligent obedience, regardless of one’s opinion of the order, or the person issuing the order. The reason barriers to fraternization, and class distinction are in place is not for the ego of the officer. It is for discipline on the field.
"On the topic of “social superiority;” examine the differences between enlisted and commissioned pay scales..."
- Plt Ldrship Typical 2ndLt <2 Base Pay $3034 Typical SSgt (USMC) > 8 Base Pay $3382
“Examine the differences between housing.”
-Every Duty Station I served at, housing that was constructed at about the same time used the same floor plan and finishes for Junior SNCO’s and Company Grade Officer’s and the same floor plan and finishes for Senior SNCO’s and Field Grade Officer’s.
I am not sure what your point is on uniform accoutrements. Enlisted personnel receive an initial set of uniforms issued and then received a clothing maintenance allowance. Officers pay for their uniforms out of pocket, and do not receive a clothing maintenance allowance. In addition the uniforms are 3-5 times the cost of the equivalent Enlisted uniform in any given class (other than utilities).
I don’t know if we agree or not on decorations. I think there are way too many “participation” and “end of tour” awards and that awards should be limited to individual awards and unit awards where the person served at least 1/3 to ½ the period for which the unit award was received.
“How about military courts martial? Ever notice that a jury can be of all commissioned officers or it can include some enlisted personnel; but it can’t be comprised of only enlisted personnel even if an enlisted man is on trial.” Ever notice that Privates don’t sit on juries for NCO’s and NCO’s don’t sit on juries for SNCO’s. Military juries never include personnel junior in rank to the accused.
“Junior Officers do not have the luxury of knowing they will rise in rank.”
-Unless the system has changed, at least in the USMC, no junior officer receives a regular commission. They receive reserve commissions. At the end of four years, if they have not been “augmented,” with a regular commission, they are ineligible for promotion to Captain and will be dismissed at the end of their obligation. When I was a junior officer, the augmentation rate was about 65%. The Promotion rate to Captain was about 80% of those who had augmented to Captain.
“Enlisted men have no opportunity to rise through the ranks to senior officer status.”
-When I was commissioned, about 25% of all junior officers commissioned were prior enlisted. Once commissioned, unless as a warrant officer or LDO, their promotion rates are no different than any other officer with the same time in grade.
Notable Mustangs of the 20th and 21st Century (The list is not all inclusive)
• Admiral Jeremy Boorda US Navy
• Major General Robin Fontes US Army
• General John W. Foss US Army
• General Tommy Franks US Marine Corps
• General Alfred M Gray 29th Commandant of the Marine Corps from 1987-91
• General Courtney Hodges US Army
• General James Mattis US Marine Corps
• Major General Lewis Burwell “Chesty” Puller US Marine Corps
• General John Shalikashvili US Army
• Major General Clarence A. Shoop US Air Force
• General Larry O. Spencer US Air Force
• General John W. Vesey US Army
• General Larry D. Welch US Air Force
• Brigadier General Chuck Yeager US Air Force
“Examine the mechanics of the salute, the enlisted man has the burden of initiating the salute; then he holds his salute until the officer salutes. Then the officer must cut before the enlisted man, who initiated the salute, is allowed to unburden himself and cut his salute.” Enlisted personnel outnumber officers typically 10-30 times on any given base that is not an officer’s school command. And typically at school commands, there is limited contact between students and permanent personnel. Do you believe that on a typical day, you rendered anywhere near the same number of salutes as the typical company grade officer? I don’t really think it is a burden to anyone.
“Let me ask you, is the identity of an officer tied to the salute?” No, but life and death do turn on immediate, intelligent, obedience. I believe saluting has some minor effect of reinforcing that.
“If it went away right now would it tear the military apart?” No but it is one step further away from immediate, intelligent obedience; Once step closer to a bunch of armed civilians.
“I’ve read articles about newly commissioned officers seeking out retired family members from whom to receive a salute.” If such a thing happens, I doubt it is about putting the retired family member in “their place.”
“Have you ever noticed you've never heard stories about enlisted men seeking out officers to salute.” Yes, my older brother, and active duty Army SFC positioned himself just off the dais when I was commissioned so he could be the first enlisted man to salute me.
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Sgt Jim H.
Maj John Bell I believe we’ve come to a point in the discussion where we must agree to disagree. Thanks for a good debate; and good luck in the future.
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
Sgt Jim H. I regret your attitude being so negative. Sorry ‘bout that.
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Sgt Jim H.
CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025 - No need for regret. I express my opinions with a clear conscience.
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