Posted on Feb 11, 2015
Gun enthusiasts and owners: What are your thoughts on Constitutional carry, concealed carry and open carry? Which do you prefer and why?
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(This is meant to be a fun debate)
There have been some studies that suggest majority of crime is opportunity based (aka crime of opportunity theory). Where criminals target those that are perceived as weaker or less likely to fight back. Giving people the means to not only protect themselves but show that they are not afraid to protect themselves may help to reduce crime rates.
There have been countless stories that have backed the prevention of crime when there is an armed citizen present (either in the home or a concealed carry). I can see where some may be concerned about this because just because you can "buy" a gun doesn't mean you know how to "use" a gun. However, some communities that are proud gun zones have less crime and actively educate their children in gun safety as well as proper handling/use.
If you are pro open carry do you think there should be a limitation on the type of firearm that can be carried based on location (e.g. public areas - handguns; hunting/lawful Target Shooting/etc. - all forms; private property - all forms; etc.)?
Edited to include statistics for carrying loaded vs. unloaded:
According to the FBI, "the average gunfight lasts 4 seconds and 95% of gunfights happen within 7 yards." So unless you can load, point and shoot a gun under 4 seconds and within 7 yards (or less if they are rushing at you with a weapon of their own) then you are essentially screwed. You might as well just run around with a baseball bat slung over your shoulder as it would be more effective.
There have been some studies that suggest majority of crime is opportunity based (aka crime of opportunity theory). Where criminals target those that are perceived as weaker or less likely to fight back. Giving people the means to not only protect themselves but show that they are not afraid to protect themselves may help to reduce crime rates.
There have been countless stories that have backed the prevention of crime when there is an armed citizen present (either in the home or a concealed carry). I can see where some may be concerned about this because just because you can "buy" a gun doesn't mean you know how to "use" a gun. However, some communities that are proud gun zones have less crime and actively educate their children in gun safety as well as proper handling/use.
If you are pro open carry do you think there should be a limitation on the type of firearm that can be carried based on location (e.g. public areas - handguns; hunting/lawful Target Shooting/etc. - all forms; private property - all forms; etc.)?
Edited to include statistics for carrying loaded vs. unloaded:
According to the FBI, "the average gunfight lasts 4 seconds and 95% of gunfights happen within 7 yards." So unless you can load, point and shoot a gun under 4 seconds and within 7 yards (or less if they are rushing at you with a weapon of their own) then you are essentially screwed. You might as well just run around with a baseball bat slung over your shoulder as it would be more effective.
Gun Control
Concealed Carry
2nd Amendment
Open Carry
Edited >1 y ago
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 102
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PO1 (Join to see) Great topic and critical under our current situation. I am a HUGE supporter of licensed concealed carry after training. This training must be sufficient to not lonely confirm the basic marksmanship ability of the individual, but more importantly that the licensed person knows when to use deadly force. Further, while some cases may provide for legal use of deadly force the use may not be the best option. Complicated and complex scenario training should be provided to enhance the abilities of the individuals.
I am not in favor of open carry. Yes, I understand the crime reduction which may take place based on the openly armed individual, but I also see issues when we allow ourselves to retrograde into "old West" mode.
Obtain training, apply for a concealed weapon permit, obtain a permit, and carry wherever you are legally able.
I am not in favor of open carry. Yes, I understand the crime reduction which may take place based on the openly armed individual, but I also see issues when we allow ourselves to retrograde into "old West" mode.
Obtain training, apply for a concealed weapon permit, obtain a permit, and carry wherever you are legally able.
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Suspended Profile
That is absolutely true that the crime is opportunity based. Perpetrators seek victims, not battles. The easier, the better, at times with no real reward behind the crime (besides be psychological gratification of power when it comes to bullies, serial killers, and sexual predators). The Anti Gunners don't realize that and all they think that getting rid of the firearms, suddenly the world magically becomes crime free (I will even compromise and say "Crime Less"). In reality unfortunately there are predators and there are victims in our flawed world.
There is also crime committed out of deprivation, which is not justified but can either bad or good (theft of edible goods for example - good, theft of money to fuel drug addiction).
As pro firearm persona, I think more firearms creates the situation akin to Mutually Assured Destruction, where criminals would have to either prepare to the degree of Organized Crime or equivalent of paramilitary unit to be able to successfully even pull of any type of violent crime or otherwise give up and move onto something where life or permanent injury would not be the risk (identity theft for example).
In either case, even firearms magically disappeared, the murder rates would not go down. I grew up in Russian Federation and firearms laws are there much stricter than in UK. Yet, the gun murder rate and murder rate overall is higher than it is in United States to this present. People will still kill people for whatever reason. It just from firearms perpetrators will move on whatever else available.
So what's next? Ban kitchen knives, screw drivers, chainsaws, axes, crowbars, baseball bats?
Ultimately to be honest as well this all comes down to the culture at hand. There are places like Japan for example, where gun murders are almost non existent and the crime (except for Organized Crime) levels are very low due to the culture (Japan's gun laws are very strict) and then there is China or Russia, where guns are basically only in the hands of the government and murder rates are extremely high.
Just to point out "the four second rule" is irrelevant since frankly if someone carries unloaded gun and have to load it before shooting kind of asking for it. Most CCW carriers I know or knew practice with their firearms and carry them loaded. The only thing that makes the difference is the opportunity. Bad guys will always have initiative. Good guys however have to look for their opportunity.
There is also crime committed out of deprivation, which is not justified but can either bad or good (theft of edible goods for example - good, theft of money to fuel drug addiction).
As pro firearm persona, I think more firearms creates the situation akin to Mutually Assured Destruction, where criminals would have to either prepare to the degree of Organized Crime or equivalent of paramilitary unit to be able to successfully even pull of any type of violent crime or otherwise give up and move onto something where life or permanent injury would not be the risk (identity theft for example).
In either case, even firearms magically disappeared, the murder rates would not go down. I grew up in Russian Federation and firearms laws are there much stricter than in UK. Yet, the gun murder rate and murder rate overall is higher than it is in United States to this present. People will still kill people for whatever reason. It just from firearms perpetrators will move on whatever else available.
So what's next? Ban kitchen knives, screw drivers, chainsaws, axes, crowbars, baseball bats?
Ultimately to be honest as well this all comes down to the culture at hand. There are places like Japan for example, where gun murders are almost non existent and the crime (except for Organized Crime) levels are very low due to the culture (Japan's gun laws are very strict) and then there is China or Russia, where guns are basically only in the hands of the government and murder rates are extremely high.
Just to point out "the four second rule" is irrelevant since frankly if someone carries unloaded gun and have to load it before shooting kind of asking for it. Most CCW carriers I know or knew practice with their firearms and carry them loaded. The only thing that makes the difference is the opportunity. Bad guys will always have initiative. Good guys however have to look for their opportunity.
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I live in rural northern NH and conceal carry. Many people up here also carry. It has never been a problem. Most of the tourists up here do not have a clue that we are carrying. I prefer concealed carry rather than rile those that don't like guns. But, it should be up to the individual as to whether they conceal carry or open carry. Without the 2nd, we don't have the 1st and without the first, we don't have a constitution!
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First, full disclosure, I own a handgun which I use at the range and for home protection. I will also inherit several guns from my father, some are WWII era, handed down to him. On gun carry laws, I have the following thoughts:
Overall: I am totally for ownership of guns without registration. I prefer to keep the world guessing if anyone has a gun as this is a deterrent by itself. Background checks are fine with me, when purchasing from dealers but not for the purpose of creating a database of who has what.
Open Carry: While I would never ban such a thing, but I do not believe in public open carry unless you are a law enforcement officer or serving in a combat zone. Carrying a gun openly in public just because you can, is much like a person abusing freedom of speech simply because they can. We have the right to bear arms (and free speech), not an obligation to do so because it's our right. Those who carry openly in public and are not going hunting or to a range (and other obvious venues), for the most part are being provocative (in my opinion). This leads to me consider their responsibility and maturity with their weapon. It also makes people nervous if they don't know you or your motives. Interestingly enough, some of the same people who want to carry openly, also demand 100% privacy. Well, keep the fact you're carrying private too! There is no need in a peaceful setting to flaunt your weapon.
Concealed Carry: Totally for it, and I encourage all those who are trained and certified to consider doing so. I'm also against gun free zones for schools and various other venues. Tearing those "gun free" signs down, by itself, will in effect become a deterrent to some would be gunmen looking for defenseless targets.
Constitutional carry: For open carry, fine (but I refer back to my opinion on open carry). For concealed carry I prefer one to become certified. CCL is usually meant for those who wish to have self protection. These are the people I want randomly in our public spaces where they can potentially address a threat. With that said, I would feel better knowing those same people are trained to do so.
Overall: I am totally for ownership of guns without registration. I prefer to keep the world guessing if anyone has a gun as this is a deterrent by itself. Background checks are fine with me, when purchasing from dealers but not for the purpose of creating a database of who has what.
Open Carry: While I would never ban such a thing, but I do not believe in public open carry unless you are a law enforcement officer or serving in a combat zone. Carrying a gun openly in public just because you can, is much like a person abusing freedom of speech simply because they can. We have the right to bear arms (and free speech), not an obligation to do so because it's our right. Those who carry openly in public and are not going hunting or to a range (and other obvious venues), for the most part are being provocative (in my opinion). This leads to me consider their responsibility and maturity with their weapon. It also makes people nervous if they don't know you or your motives. Interestingly enough, some of the same people who want to carry openly, also demand 100% privacy. Well, keep the fact you're carrying private too! There is no need in a peaceful setting to flaunt your weapon.
Concealed Carry: Totally for it, and I encourage all those who are trained and certified to consider doing so. I'm also against gun free zones for schools and various other venues. Tearing those "gun free" signs down, by itself, will in effect become a deterrent to some would be gunmen looking for defenseless targets.
Constitutional carry: For open carry, fine (but I refer back to my opinion on open carry). For concealed carry I prefer one to become certified. CCL is usually meant for those who wish to have self protection. These are the people I want randomly in our public spaces where they can potentially address a threat. With that said, I would feel better knowing those same people are trained to do so.
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PO1 (Join to see)
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin For the most part I agree with many of your points. One of my biggest issues is with the ability to open carry on your own private property. For example, if I own a ranch or farm I would like to be able to have my rifle mounted openly in my truck so if I need it out on my property it is a lot closer than in my house. Another is open carrying a handgun, holstered on my hip while out and about on my property (think 40-100 acres in mountain country). This to me is not as "crazy" as doing the same thing in a public area. I would never open carry in a public setting but I feel I should be allowed to conceal carry without having to explain to anyone why I feel the need to. My thought process is: If I obtain my gun legally, can legally open carry then why all the sudden if I throw a jacket on am I now "illegally" conceal carrying?
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Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
First, I mentioned this on open carry; "and other obvious venues". Concealed or open laws should never be applied in your home (be it a ranch or a .25 acre yard).
On concealed carry, again I stress, I believe people should get their license with the precursor of a training requirement. This is more of a safety issue to me when it comes to the responsibility of carrying a weapon in public.
Your example does present a potential issue, but I could also say you should be cognizant of your situation when you decide to walk out the door with the weapon.
On concealed carry, again I stress, I believe people should get their license with the precursor of a training requirement. This is more of a safety issue to me when it comes to the responsibility of carrying a weapon in public.
Your example does present a potential issue, but I could also say you should be cognizant of your situation when you decide to walk out the door with the weapon.
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I have a Concealed Carry Permit here in Kentucky but we are an open carry state as well so that's what I do. I practice EVERY day at 15 & 25'. Range ammo isn't as expensive as my .45 cal hollow points but I sure pay the difference during nightly cleaning and maintenance. Cantaloupes with Black Magic Marker make excellent "head targets" stuck onto a pole in the ground. I run the written portion of the Conceal Carry class test and the pass/fail rate is pathetic. Over 70% Fail the first time. They get great instruction and range time but do they read the study pamphlet before testing? Nooo....
I cut the top of my favorite side holster off and sealed the leather with Heel & Edge Dressing. I can assure you I can draw and fire in under 4 seconds and hit whatever I am pointing at. Actually stopped a robbery at the local Dollar General store. He already had $1,250 in his hand but was still pointing a .357 wheelgun at the cashier. I slid up behind him and when he felt my handgun on the back of his neck he listened to me and laid the weapon and cash on the counter. After the police left I was nervous as heck.
Thanks,
Rick
I cut the top of my favorite side holster off and sealed the leather with Heel & Edge Dressing. I can assure you I can draw and fire in under 4 seconds and hit whatever I am pointing at. Actually stopped a robbery at the local Dollar General store. He already had $1,250 in his hand but was still pointing a .357 wheelgun at the cashier. I slid up behind him and when he felt my handgun on the back of his neck he listened to me and laid the weapon and cash on the counter. After the police left I was nervous as heck.
Thanks,
Rick
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PO1 (Join to see)
SGT Rick Ash I bet that cashier was really glad you were carrying that day! This is another great example of why it is best not to unarm legal citizens, because the bad guys won't stop being bad guys.
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Concealed carry. I also prefer Constitutional carry WRT concealed carry. If I have to get a permit to do something, it's not really a right.
We need 15-day waiting periods and permits on assault printing presses, radio transmitters, and Internet routers.
We need 15-day waiting periods and permits on assault printing presses, radio transmitters, and Internet routers.
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I know what open carry and concealed carry are, but what the heck is constitutional carry? Is it similar to port arms?
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PO1 (Join to see)
SFC Michael Hasbun Phahahahahahahah.....Constitutional carry is concealed carry without a permit (this has been passed in some states already).
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SFC Michael Hasbun
Ah, gotcha... Thank you... (Side question, what's the origin of the phrase? I've read the constitution a bit, and I've never read the term "concealed carry" in there).
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PO1 (Join to see)
SFC Michael Hasbun The most common definition of constitutional carry is, "The permitless carry, commonly referred to as constitutional carry by gun rights activists, allows anyone over the age of 21 to carry a firearm so long as they legally own the firearm. Felons and other criminals are still prohibited from carrying a firearm."
All in all if you can legally purchase the firearm then you can legally carry that firearm without paying additional fees or taxes on mandatory trainings and permits. As you can see from the map below only 5 states have passed constitutional carry without restrictions. There are other states that have passed constitutional carry but they are with restrictions (e.g. unloaded firearm, without a bullet in the camber, etc.). I always recommend reviewing your state's policy to see if there are any restrictions.
There is a current bill in congress (https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/498) called the Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015 that, "Amends the federal criminal code to authorize a person who is not prohibited from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm under federal law, who is entitled and not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm in his or her state of residence or who is carrying a valid state license or permit to carry a concealed weapon, and who is carrying a government-issued photographic identification document, to carry a concealed handgun (which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, other than a machine gun or destructive device) in any state in accordance with the restrictions of that state. Provides that in a state that allows the issuing authority for licenses or permits to carry concealed firearms to impose restrictions on the carrying of firearms by individual license or permit holders, an individual carrying a concealed handgun under this Act shall be permitted to carry it according to the same terms authorized by an unrestricted license or permit issued by such state."
http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=164
All in all if you can legally purchase the firearm then you can legally carry that firearm without paying additional fees or taxes on mandatory trainings and permits. As you can see from the map below only 5 states have passed constitutional carry without restrictions. There are other states that have passed constitutional carry but they are with restrictions (e.g. unloaded firearm, without a bullet in the camber, etc.). I always recommend reviewing your state's policy to see if there are any restrictions.
There is a current bill in congress (https://www.congress.gov/bill/114th-congress/senate-bill/498) called the Constitutional Concealed Carry Reciprocity Act of 2015 that, "Amends the federal criminal code to authorize a person who is not prohibited from possessing, transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm under federal law, who is entitled and not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm in his or her state of residence or who is carrying a valid state license or permit to carry a concealed weapon, and who is carrying a government-issued photographic identification document, to carry a concealed handgun (which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, other than a machine gun or destructive device) in any state in accordance with the restrictions of that state. Provides that in a state that allows the issuing authority for licenses or permits to carry concealed firearms to impose restrictions on the carrying of firearms by individual license or permit holders, an individual carrying a concealed handgun under this Act shall be permitted to carry it according to the same terms authorized by an unrestricted license or permit issued by such state."
http://www.opencarry.org/?page_id=164
Visit the post for more.
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My thoughts are as follows: The 2nd Amendment says 'keep and bear' arms. Bearing, in this sense, means to have or carry on one's person so bearing arms is a Constitutionally protected right, as SCOTUS has affirmed in the last few years. I prefer concealed carry to open carry for a few reasons. First and foremost, if you're carrying openly and somehow end up in a shooting situation, the guy who starts shooting will target you first and you'll end up shot and your weapon likely being used against innocent bystanders. Further, the cops tend to get called in for that sort of thing and both I and they have better ways to spend their time.
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PO1 (Join to see)
1LT Aaron Barr I feel exactly the same way, with the addition of open carry on your own private property. For example, if I own a ranch or farm I would like to be able to have my rifle mounted openly in my truck so if I need it out on my property it is a lot closer than in my house. Another is open carrying a handgun, holstered on my hip while out and about on my property (think 40-60 acres in mountain country). This to me is not as "crazy" as doing the same thing in a public area. I would never open carry in a public setting but I feel I should be allowed to conceal carry without having to explain to anyone why I feel the need to. My thought process is: If I obtain my gun legally, can legally open carry then why all the sudden if I throw a jacket on am I now "illegally" conceal carrying?
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1LT Aaron Barr
As far as I know, you can carry open or concealed on your own property without any law being involved.
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I carry concealed even in my home state that allows for open carry unless I am out away from the city. Primarily because if someone is our to do harm they will attack the person that is obviously armed first, second because there are stories of people being walked up on and told "Nice gun now hand it over real slow."
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PO1 (Join to see)
SSgt (Join to see) This is probably the most common reasons I have heard in regards to open vs. concealed. However what is your opinion on constitutional carry vs. concealed carry? Personally, I feel that I would carry depending on situation and circumstances. If I own a ranch or farm I would like to be able to have my rifle mounted openly in my truck so if I need it out on my property it is a lot closer than in my house. Another is open carrying a handgun, holstered on my hip while out and about on my property (think 40-60 acres in mountain country). This to me is not as "crazy" as doing the same thing in a public area. I would never open carry in a public setting but I feel I should be allowed to conceal carry without having to explain to anyone why I feel the need to.
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SSgt (Join to see)
I believe that when you have people that can defend themselves two things happen. 1. people are politer. this is both fear and respect. you have the fear of the weapon/consequences of the response they have and your actions. 2. it makes people think harder about their actions. I know I do when I carry and yes I realize that you will always have those that abuse it but they must also deal with both number 1 and the consequences of their actions after the fact.
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I have a CONCEALED carry license and I emphasize concealed. Those that flaunt their weapons, even when lawfully allowed to, especially those with AR's or AK's, just add fuel to the anti gunners. It's like you have the right to yell fire in a theater, but it's just plain stupid to do it.
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