Posted on May 9, 2016
SGT Nia Chiaraluce
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This question was brought to me recently. A concerned peer is just now finding out about the NCOER appeal process. Their concern is the counseling dates were falsified giving the individual no time to rehabilitate from a 4/4 rating. Also, to clarify it's not just the counseling dates in question. What is the level of proof needed etc.? I personally have not dealt with this type of situation, but want to help them out the best I can without just sending them to the HRC website.
Posted in these groups: Leadership abstract 007 Leadership02465838216ea014750f6a70670013dd c0 34 4761 2809 s561x327 Senior Leaders1efa5058 NCOER
Edited >1 y ago
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SFC UH-60 Helicopter Repairer
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Just rapid fire answer here: One, the example is from the old form, and is longer than the two year statute for submitting an appeal. The area of emphasis for that is that OEF 8 was a lifetime ago. Secondly, and most importantly, you cannot submit a 4/4 without multi echelon approval, so I would be pretty sure that it was vetted thoroughly.
Being that it is board season, I assume someone is trying to clean up their records. That would be more at a letter to the board situation. However, it happens frequently when we get new NCO's to our units that we get caught in the spin cycle. Bad NCOER's are usually earned. Very rarely does one make it through all of the signatures to HRC, with false narratives. If you suspect you are being railroaded, address it immediately. The situation never ages like wine. It ages like milk. Be careful with this situation. If this individual who received a subpar rating is acting clueless, but it made it past every step in the review process, he may be stringing you along. Sometimes, as leaders, we try to solve the problems of everyone in our scope of influence, when they are steady creating more for us.
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SGT Nia Chiaraluce
SGT Nia Chiaraluce
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I was unaware of the two year statute. They simply let it lie like they were told and because they are a junior leader they were instructed to appeal it by branch. They want to go recruiting and this is their only hindrance. They also don't want to get promoted just to potentially face qmp because of this ncoer. Regardless if the rating was back up with counselings this was unprofessional, personal and not how a ncoer should ever be written.
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SFC UH-60 Helicopter Repairer
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>1 y
Just because you opt not to be considered for promotion doesn't exclude you from QMP. The misconduct is generally examined based on whether it occurred in the SM's current grade, although I have heard that it goes further back. All SSG and above are subject to QMP. SGT rank is managed through RCP. Declining to have his records considered for promotion will not hide his records from the Qualitative Management Program.
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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Did he or she sign it??
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SGT Nia Chiaraluce
SGT Nia Chiaraluce
>1 y
Roger
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
SFC (Join to see)
>1 y
Never been in that situation but just keep at the appeal process
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SFC Platoon Sergeant
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>1 y
It's better to try than not
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SSG Eagle Tovar
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I believe that I will be called out-dated--I've been out of the Service for quite a while. But I do know one thing: even back in the 80's and 90's, the NCOER system was one of the most misused areas I ever saw. The NCOER system is vastly unfair--if you want to promote someone, they have to receive perfect scores. Anything less than a perfect score jeopardized the Soldier's career--even if the score was well deserved.

The responses I have read were concerned with fixing the NCOER. How about fixing the NCO being evaluated? I believe that it is unfair to automatically assume that the NCOER is in error...what if the NCO on whom this is written is truly a soup sandwich on moldy bread?

My suggestions:

1. SCRAP the current NCOER system. Use written comments and ratings instead of a numerical score. The closing paragraph should be concise, simple, and should have four choices: Promote, Retain, Reduce or Discharge. This idea that someone MUST be promoted or be discharged really shoots military readiness in the foot. How so? I knew Soldiers who would NOT make good NCO's at ALL--but who were masters their jobs, knowing their equipment better than some Warrant Officers. No, they weren't fully polished--but if you needed that system to come up quickly, you called these Soldiers first.

2. Put promotion authority back where it belongs--at the LOCAL level. I'm not talking about SSG or below--I'm talking about SFC and above! Think about it...who can better pick a prospective Platoon Sergeant--someone sitting behind a desk at DA with a magnifying glass, or the First Sergeant of that prospective Company? Should a Master Sergeant have their records sent through on a thumb drive, or electronically forwarded--or should they appear before a board of Command Sergeants Major, in the Battalion they are assigned to? Which choice makes more sense?

3. For heaven's sake, let's stop crucifying Soldiers for making mistakes!!! ONE Article 15 effectively kills a Soldier's career. WHY? I saw Soldiers who best resembled boxes of rocks--who received proper mentoring and positive yet firm correction from their NCO's who went on to become outstanding leaders. And PLEASE---let's not hear "there's no room in the Army for substandard Soldiers". Can anyone on this board TRULY say that they NEVER made a mistake early on that would have possibly killed their careers if they had been held accountable by today's standards?

Bottom line: why assume that the author of the NCOER was instantly wrong? And--why automatically assume that the subject of such an NCOER is a total loss?
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SGT Nia Chiaraluce
SGT Nia Chiaraluce
>1 y
Fair. However, that person is still in and if you note the SR comments on the the front they contradict the back. Even the back bottom contradicts itself.
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SFC Michael Bazzell
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Tell your friend to step up his game or he is gone.
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SGT Nia Chiaraluce
SGT Nia Chiaraluce
>1 y
Please clarify. This NCOER is quite old. They are trying to appeal it now so that they aren't battling a QMP later for it. They didn't even think it would be an issue until branch told them to appeal it. So, because this was written after an IG complaint against the rater I'm advising they take this eval back to Division IG and show them the recourse/reprisal the complaint caused. Also, have them put that as a point in the appeal memorandum.
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SFC Michael Bazzell
SFC Michael Bazzell
>1 y
I understand but raging against the machine is not the answer either. Every duty station I had good relations with rater, senior rater, and reviewer. In this case all three people wanted to screw this guy. There is some major self reflection that needs to be done by the rated.
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SSG Small Group Leader
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.44 Magnum
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SFC PATRIOT Fire Control Enhanced Operator/Maintainer
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I don't see this NCOER making it past the senior rater much less a BN CSM. I would like to see the councelings that justify this report.
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SFC Acquisition, Logistics & Technology (AL&T) Contracting NCO
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Duties and Responsibilities.... wow, talk about copy and paste. That a good way to get nailed for negligence. Also, where are the dates for event oriented counselings for all the negative events that are being claimed. This never would have made it past a 1SG or Commander performing a review.
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SGT Cavalry Scout
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Is this a bogus NCOER? I seriously doubt a CSM approved this. For starters not one bullet begins correctly. Some blocks only have 1 maybe 2 bullets. And this NCO gets a yes in every block in the values column but has a rating of 4/4. It doesn't seem legit to me. However if it is I'd tell the NCO to request to his/her quarterly counselings and personal counselings. That will be the things they need for justification.
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SSG John Bacon
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That is some Garbage for sure. What did they do to piss off their CoC?
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SGT Nia Chiaraluce
SGT Nia Chiaraluce
>1 y
Filed an IG complaint against there rater before that NCOER
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SFC Ronald Widiger
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I'll put it in simple terms. No. There is little that can be done unless you find someone higher in your chain of command that is willing to go to bat for you. It takes a lot of extra work besides the everyday duties you are expected to perform and that may not be even close to enough. In the end, NCOERs very seldom get overruled and sent back for re-evaluation. People don't like stepping on other people's toes. From experience, I had outright lies stated on mine and I pushed mine all the way to the JAG office and they said they would not get involved.
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