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Do you feel that is fair that Soldiers are getting honorable discharges for PT failure? I feel like some Soldiers are using it as a scapegoat to get out of the Army. Do you agree?
Posted in these groups: 
Physical Training
Discharge
Physical Training Discharge
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 126
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Which part of the UCMJ did they violate and get convicted of that they need something other than a fully Honorable discharge?
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CSM Mike Maynard
PO1 Pete Sikes , I agree with your premise that the didn't violate the UCMJ, that's why APFT and ABCP failures are administrative discharges and not eligible for dishonorable or bad conduct discharges. But, I do think it's important that those that fail because of a lack of effort do not receive the same full Honorable that those who gave the effort and fulfilled their complete contract get.
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There are many reasons why service members can't pass their respective service pt test, not all are due to just plain laziness or being undisciplined. Most young people today did not grow up doing the hard work of farming, spending all of their days outside, walking or riding a bike everywhere they go, spending afternoons and weekends outside playing pickup games and participating in recess and mandatory gym classes in school. Their bodies breakdown faster, especially under the stress of deployment. And it's only going to get worse under the guise of providing everyone opportunity to do everything. A lot of these young people are going to have physical issues to deal with for the rest of their lives. There have been and always will be those that try to get over it game the system. We can't punish everyone for the poor performers.
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CPL Tim Heslin
I'm a 6'5" string bean. When I was in the Army I struggled to get the minimum 42 pushups. Usually I would get to 38-40 and fall on my face. I did max out on the sit-ups and the run. I was a good soldier that won many awards. Glad they didn't dishonorably discharge me.
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CAPT (Join to see)
Of course, people with legit medical problems should NOT be dishonorably discharged, and I never implied that. However, majority of PT failures are due to not preparing. If you cannot do enough pushups, then do more pushups. Or, accept a lower standard and don't be surprised when more people are there to lower themselves to it.
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CAPT (Join to see)
TSgt (Join to see) - Never said legit med issues warrant a dishonorable discharge, Shipmate. Maybe you interpreted what you wanted to hear.
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PO2 William Wilt
CAPT (Join to see) - with all due respect sir the person your talking to is an airman and not a marine or a petty officer your use of an honorable title in a disparaging way spits on the face of the Navy's core values. as you are in a position to lead you should do so in all of your interactions i would suggest taking a page from the sergeant majors book and lead from the front. you never know which of your subordinates will come across your disrespect on this forum and it has the possibility of weakening your leadership thus degrading unit performance.
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So many soldiers have their lives ruined over this. The physical fitness standards are completely outdated and the height/weight/tape is even worse. I'm glad that we are relooking at this issue with a fine toothed comb. The military is definitely not for everyone but when I see people that have a couple combat deployments with genuine experience and speak 3 or more languages get booted for missing the mark by five sit ups or a minute on their run, somebody of importance should look at that soldier and ask themselves,"does it really benefit the army to kick someone of that caliber out?"
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CSM Mike Maynard
SGT (Join to see) - I understand where you're coming from, but how do we set a standard, but then ignore it (doesn't matter how close you miss it - 1sec, 1pu, etc, either meet it or you don't). Are you for just doing away with standards all together so that no one would be violating standards? Or would you like to go down the path of continually lowering standards and then as people miss those by a little, continue to lower them?
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SGT (Join to see)
CSM I believe some standards are irrelevant in all honesty. Case in point, every mandatory SSD training. It's a mandatory standard that delivers no real results....yet it exists. Or the suicide awareness training that seems to have no impact on the number of suicides yet we continue doing the training because it's mandatory. We need real solutions. The systems in place now are archaic in comparison to keeping up with logical reasoning behind standardized tests and physical conditioning.
With that said, I don't feel it's a question of lowering standards. I feel like it's misplaced energy taken away from actual solutions. So ultimately I feel as though some standards should be reevaluated because in all honesty the standards have been lowering for years.
With that said, I don't feel it's a question of lowering standards. I feel like it's misplaced energy taken away from actual solutions. So ultimately I feel as though some standards should be reevaluated because in all honesty the standards have been lowering for years.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SGT (Join to see) - you bring up some good points and I won't debate and will agree that we seem to trudge forward into blind oblivion with some ineffective training, but that is a tangent and significantly different than why the APFT/ABCP and having standards are important.
It makes more sense when you look at it through the lens of statistics. If 75% of the folks who fail the APFT are also more pre-disposed to other unhealthy habits/lifestyles that effect the readiness of the force compared with only 25% of folks who pass the test, then the "test" has done it's job to determine, generally, whose unhealthy/unfit lifestyle could affect readiness, that's really the only purpose, not to determine a level of capability/fitness, but determine risk categories.
This is why the standard has to matter, not based on how much you miss it or make it by, or if it really determines who is more or less fit, it is strictly to determine readiness risk wrt to the physical component of being a Soldier. Nope, not perfect, and not meant to be, it's statistics, so if we can find a cause/affect that helps us identify risk, then it's "good enough".
Another example is ABCP, generally, men with more fat around their midsection have more health problems. So, its' not really about "looking like a Soldier" or being a certain body type or the myriad other reasons you hear for why it's important. Again, we've found out that statistically, increased belly fat relates to generally poor health which increases the risk to our readiness.
So, it's all about using "standards" that help us determine who poses the greatest risk to our readiness (wrt to the physical/health component) and allow us to shape the force so we have the greatest amount of healthy folks that increase our readiness. And, not to mention the increased costs while in/out of service that we subjugate ourselves to in our ever-shrinking budget by allowing unhealthy folks to continue to serve.
It makes more sense when you look at it through the lens of statistics. If 75% of the folks who fail the APFT are also more pre-disposed to other unhealthy habits/lifestyles that effect the readiness of the force compared with only 25% of folks who pass the test, then the "test" has done it's job to determine, generally, whose unhealthy/unfit lifestyle could affect readiness, that's really the only purpose, not to determine a level of capability/fitness, but determine risk categories.
This is why the standard has to matter, not based on how much you miss it or make it by, or if it really determines who is more or less fit, it is strictly to determine readiness risk wrt to the physical component of being a Soldier. Nope, not perfect, and not meant to be, it's statistics, so if we can find a cause/affect that helps us identify risk, then it's "good enough".
Another example is ABCP, generally, men with more fat around their midsection have more health problems. So, its' not really about "looking like a Soldier" or being a certain body type or the myriad other reasons you hear for why it's important. Again, we've found out that statistically, increased belly fat relates to generally poor health which increases the risk to our readiness.
So, it's all about using "standards" that help us determine who poses the greatest risk to our readiness (wrt to the physical/health component) and allow us to shape the force so we have the greatest amount of healthy folks that increase our readiness. And, not to mention the increased costs while in/out of service that we subjugate ourselves to in our ever-shrinking budget by allowing unhealthy folks to continue to serve.
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The day they stop deploying broken soldiers to a war zone, or deny broken soldiers from volunteering to go to the sand box, then we can look at this question.
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Sure! Let's hold them to a higher standard not allowing any room for life, things that happen along the way or physical issues! Not acceptable. I ran and passed many PFT's but I can tell you I always struggled. Not once did I not try though. Those who lead by fear ultimately succumb to it. Increase the threat by giving those who would fail OTH Discharges and you would condemning everything teamwork stands for regardless of Branch of Service and Time served. That line of illogical thinking would truly be threatening the mission. You'll have a whole group full of people who are afraid to eat, sleep or even Walk the same way thinking Uncle Sam will toss them and their families out on their ears with no Benefits. Unsat. Record their progress, but also record their improvements and them reward accordingly.
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CSM Mike Maynard
PO2 Harlan Jones , first, you cannot receive an Other Than Honorable discharge for failing an APFT, under Chp 13 (Unsat Perf), you can only receive an Honorable or a General Under Honorable. Second, we're not talking about discharging someone for failing one PFT, we're talking about someone who failed a PFT, was given 90-days to "re-train" and then failed again (with no evidence of medical issues that caused the failure).
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The whole honorable, less than honorable, under honorable conditions, and dishonorable really need a long looking at. Here's why: when I was in S2 we unfortunate had to take care of all the derogatory reporting for the unit. I saw people with drug charges get an honorable discharge. It all ultimately comes down to the commander of the CG if they did something really bad. In saying all that I think if someone fails a PT test and it can be proven that they did so with malicious intent, I would agree with a less than honorable discharge. But I never see that happening in today's Army or military.
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SPC Christopher Shanahan
Also sorry for all the grammatical errors... Did it on my phone and wasn't paying attention.
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If you fail te PFT/PRT you should not get an honorable discharge. If you had medical problems they should have been properly documented allowing you to perform a partial. If it's bad enough you should be medically separated or retired.
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SSgt (Join to see)
CAPT (Join to see) Sir, in cases like yours I am absolutely fine with a partial PFT/PRT or even a modified one. You had a legitimate injury and it sounds like you didn't let it hold you back. Service members like yourself should absolutely be retained for as long as you want to serve. But I'm talking mostly about holding people to the standard. If PFC A did everything he was supposed to and chooses to get out after his initial enlistment he should be entitled to everything benefit he earned in the service. When PFC B doesn't conform to all standards, fails a PFT/PRT for a lack of physical conditioning then yes he should be separated with an other than honorable discharge.
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I feel it's the same thing as getting out on not having a Family Care Plan in place. That's an Honorable as well. In both cases, the Army says, "Thanks for playing. Better luck at your next gig." Some service members fail APFT on purpose when they realize the Army is not for them. Some soldiers say their FCP fell apart and now their person will no longer care for their child if deployed. Or the long term plan is good, but they have no short term plan. I'm with the powers that be on this, "Thanks for trying." No issues with the Honorable.
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If the SM fails one APFT, they should be placed on remedial pt with Master Fitness Trainer, if trained properly the SM should increase in all areas of the APFT!
A separation for APFT failures, doesn't always result in a honorable discharge. So if they care about their future at all and understand the consequences, just mentioning the fact that a honorable discharge isn't guaranteed may be enough to "scare" them into shape.
A separation for APFT failures, doesn't always result in a honorable discharge. So if they care about their future at all and understand the consequences, just mentioning the fact that a honorable discharge isn't guaranteed may be enough to "scare" them into shape.
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SSG William Sutter
Scare tactics can end up backfiring by causing additional adversity. Mentor, train and lead is all that should be in an NCOs mind.
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