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Do you feel that is fair that Soldiers are getting honorable discharges for PT failure? I feel like some Soldiers are using it as a scapegoat to get out of the Army. Do you agree?
Posted in these groups: 
Physical Training
Discharge
Physical Training Discharge
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 126
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Dishonorable discharge is worse than a felony. It never comes off your record. You can never legally purchase, own, or possess a firearm.
I am an engineer and I will take a group of hard working skilled pt failures over the soldiers who can only pt well and meet a high physical standard.
Smart skilled individuals out perform dumb strong ones, unless dumb and strong is the only requirement.
I am an engineer and I will take a group of hard working skilled pt failures over the soldiers who can only pt well and meet a high physical standard.
Smart skilled individuals out perform dumb strong ones, unless dumb and strong is the only requirement.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SPC Kortney Kistler - First, you can't receive a dishonorable for APFT failure, only Honorable and General Under Honorable. Second, luckily we don't normally have to choose between the two characters you described, the majority of our folks are skilled and strong and I'll pick those every day.
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SPC Kortney Kistler
CSM Mike Maynard - I know you can't get a dishonorable for pt failure, but the thought of the premise of such is ludicrous.
I'm not saying that everyone is inept, but in my 9 years and deployment I saw a lot more of it than there should have been. Active, reserve/guard, it was everywhere. Many people were too focused on "it's not my job." I'm certain with your rank you have run into plenty.
I'm not saying that everyone is inept, but in my 9 years and deployment I saw a lot more of it than there should have been. Active, reserve/guard, it was everywhere. Many people were too focused on "it's not my job." I'm certain with your rank you have run into plenty.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SPC Kortney Kistler - I agree with you. However well or not well you do in the military, you have still volunteered to sacrifice, even if you didn't know the full implications, so, I too would have a problem giving someone an OTH or lower and making it harder on them when they got out for an administrative discharge.
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Not unless you're willing to hold weapons qualification to the same standard. I'm much more concerned about having a soldier that can engage and destroy the enemy with accurate fire than one that can sprint two miles in gym shorts.
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CSM Mike Maynard
SFC (Join to see) - I agree with you on the importance of marksmanship. When I was a 1SG/CSM, we initiated a Bar to Reenlistment for those that couldn't qualify with their weapon.
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I am in AIT as of right now I failed my first pt test by 5 push ups. But I also hurt my knee in the process and have been on profile I won't get to take another pt test. So is it fair for me to get anything other than an honorable discharge?
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PO2 John Weidenfeller
Its all again based on that paper trail... they have medical waivers to issue if they have too.
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PFC Alexander Oliveira
SPC (Join to see) - what I was saying is CSM Maynard is the only E9 I have ever witnessed say that a soldier should have time to heal. respect is rightfully given.always has been. I was just saying its a rarity to see a motivating E9 instead of an accusing and wrongfully disrespectful one, as I have only ever witnessed.
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SPC (Join to see)
PFC Alexander Oliveira - give it some time, i have the utmosy faith they will change your mind. I apologize if I sounded like I was tearing into you
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in my experience (12 years) pt failures for the most part are a failure of leadership and not only of the soldier. many times the remedial pt programs are not followed as religiously as the fm calls for and that soldiers NCO doesn't always go with I would advocate if a solider is realistically trying to improve and fails out then yes an honor able discharge is warranted. now if the soldier tanks deliberatly.... something less is warranted
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CSM Mike Maynard
CPT (Join to see) , but aren't the standards realistically achievable if these Soldiers/Adults cared enough to devote as much personal time to improving their physical fitness as they do to the other things they enjoy?
It seems that everyone can achieve a GO with a moderate level effort and interest in their own success - do some pushups/situps a few times a week and then go do some 1/4 or 1/2 mile intervals a couple times a week - doesn't seem like a whole of effort is needed to just pass if they really wanted to.
So, it would seem that it becomes a personal choice / responsibility in demonstrating the discipline to invest the personal time to achieve what the Army says is important. And, if they willingly/knowingly don't invest the effort, aren't they deliberating tanking it?
It seems that everyone can achieve a GO with a moderate level effort and interest in their own success - do some pushups/situps a few times a week and then go do some 1/4 or 1/2 mile intervals a couple times a week - doesn't seem like a whole of effort is needed to just pass if they really wanted to.
So, it would seem that it becomes a personal choice / responsibility in demonstrating the discipline to invest the personal time to achieve what the Army says is important. And, if they willingly/knowingly don't invest the effort, aren't they deliberating tanking it?
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CSM Mike Maynard
PV2 Quivier Lopez rodriguez - I appreciate your explanation of why you voted my response down. I won't bother down voting you, but will respond to your response.
I disagree with your reasoning, they are excuses or reasons why something can't be done, nothing in your response is positive or about how to overcome or achieve.
- make you skip "a" PT session here or there is not that big of a deal - 2-3 sessions per week should be sufficient for you to meet the standard.
- getting off at 1909 every now and then is, again, not that big of a deal either.
a good challenging/effective PRT session is about 40min, out of 1,440 minutes in a day. if we offered to pay you $100 to find time on your own to do PRT, you would find the time, it's all about the desire/discipline to do it.
It's not that we are paper/ink happy to kick folks out, but we are looking for self-motivated folks who have the internal pride and motivation to meet the standards, especially in an area (APFT) that they can easily achieve through their own doing. If someone doesn't even have the discipline to do that, then it's hard to justify the inordinate amount of time that we have to invest just to get someone to a marginal level of performance.
Think of the Army/Military as a professional sports team - you come and try out and if you don't make the cut, you go home - no hard/personal feelings, just business. No one has a "right" to be in the military, it is a privilege and we retain our top performers.
I disagree with your reasoning, they are excuses or reasons why something can't be done, nothing in your response is positive or about how to overcome or achieve.
- make you skip "a" PT session here or there is not that big of a deal - 2-3 sessions per week should be sufficient for you to meet the standard.
- getting off at 1909 every now and then is, again, not that big of a deal either.
a good challenging/effective PRT session is about 40min, out of 1,440 minutes in a day. if we offered to pay you $100 to find time on your own to do PRT, you would find the time, it's all about the desire/discipline to do it.
It's not that we are paper/ink happy to kick folks out, but we are looking for self-motivated folks who have the internal pride and motivation to meet the standards, especially in an area (APFT) that they can easily achieve through their own doing. If someone doesn't even have the discipline to do that, then it's hard to justify the inordinate amount of time that we have to invest just to get someone to a marginal level of performance.
Think of the Army/Military as a professional sports team - you come and try out and if you don't make the cut, you go home - no hard/personal feelings, just business. No one has a "right" to be in the military, it is a privilege and we retain our top performers.
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I agree though i too failed my pt due to a broken back hip pelvis and ankle. I failed the run by just over a minute and was discharged sent home on pain meds and steroids with a Chapter 11 so the army does have some issues
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I agree that persons who can't meet minimum standards for any mos mandatory qualifications should be separated. But not meeting standards especially physical limitations is not a dishonorable act.
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I failed every PT test I ever took and slipped through the cracks because I did my other jobs well. I just couldn't run long distance. I went to a small unit in Germany and they kept giving me chances but never could do it. Went to Saudi Arabia for 6 months to avoid getting kicked out. Was the best stinger operator in my platoon and 13th in the battalion. Got a new Captain who was a Ranger and it was over for me. I got an honorable and I felt I deserved it.
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CSM William Payne
If you couldn't pass the APFT by the end of Basic Combat Training and have not suffered any kind of injury, in my opinion you should have been administratively discharged. Passing the APFT is a requirement for being in the Army. I served for forty years and never missed height and weight and failed a the APFT once when running on an injured knee in my fifties. Retook the test the following week at the Army Drill Sergeant School and passed. Letting APFT and height and weight failures move on to their Advanced Individual Training or their first duty station is just kicking the can down the road. Sorry.
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No way, you get an honorable for completing your time clean. If they want out you let them out, General. We had a guy who wanted out, he wasn't a shit bird he just didn't do anything, he wasn't suitable, he got a General. Then they can explain to future employers in a tough job market his story. The unit shouldn't go thru the scam of failed pts and Dr visits because his leg hurts.
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SrA Benjamin Luzier
I got discharged 1 month before my time in service was up due to pt failures. I had back surgery just 6 months before and was tested 3 times in 2 months even with dealing with swelling from the surgery. My leadership coerced the med group to change my profile so that I could be placed back into normal rotation 1 month after surgery when the Dr who did the surgery gabe my 2 months of recovery. Should I have been given anything other than honorable for failing to make tape with a stomach that was swollen beyond passing?
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Sgt Dale Briggs
That's pretty shitty I'm sorry for thst. My sons AF attached to Army, he had severe medical issues coming out of Afghanastan . Happily his detachment at Ft Drum was terrific and he got proper care and support. He's now at Lewis McChord still attached to Army, and gets tremendous support from leadership and the health care.
Could this be an AF issue? A mos issue? Preference to AF vs my son being Army support? Either way your right to request mast stands and if it's fact leadership forced a medical professional to Change a status would have pissed me off. With nothing to lose I would have went to legal. You earned that basic right if you think your being unfairly hustled out.
If there's discharge for medical I don't know if they do Honorable with Medical conditions, seems fair. Your injured and the only disqualifier would be if your were doing back flips off hotel balconies into the pool kinda thing. Don't mean to be flip but you see the point about how the injury occurred.
Could this be an AF issue? A mos issue? Preference to AF vs my son being Army support? Either way your right to request mast stands and if it's fact leadership forced a medical professional to Change a status would have pissed me off. With nothing to lose I would have went to legal. You earned that basic right if you think your being unfairly hustled out.
If there's discharge for medical I don't know if they do Honorable with Medical conditions, seems fair. Your injured and the only disqualifier would be if your were doing back flips off hotel balconies into the pool kinda thing. Don't mean to be flip but you see the point about how the injury occurred.
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Unless you can prove they are failing on purpose a general discharge is what they should get. Definitely not an honorable unless it is because of medical reasons. We all know you have to either be a complete shitbag or hurt to realistically fail a pt test but unless you can prove it there is no justification for a dishonorable.
That being said I've taken pt tests after 3 day benders and passed, 2 weeks after neck surgery and passed, 2 days after falling 15 ft. And landing on my back and shoulder and having a concussion and passed. 18 months during a deployment with no pt and passed. Those are just a few examples of times i really could have given myself an excuse to let myself fail over the last 23 yrs. Granted none of those occasions did I have a spectacular score but i never scored under 230 my norm being 280 to 300 plus on the extended scale but I passed. So I have a hard time with anyone who can actually fail a p.t. test and say they tried their hardest to pass.
That being said I've taken pt tests after 3 day benders and passed, 2 weeks after neck surgery and passed, 2 days after falling 15 ft. And landing on my back and shoulder and having a concussion and passed. 18 months during a deployment with no pt and passed. Those are just a few examples of times i really could have given myself an excuse to let myself fail over the last 23 yrs. Granted none of those occasions did I have a spectacular score but i never scored under 230 my norm being 280 to 300 plus on the extended scale but I passed. So I have a hard time with anyone who can actually fail a p.t. test and say they tried their hardest to pass.
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