Posted on Apr 3, 2014
LTC Yinon Weiss
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Given the recent active shooter tragedy that happened at Fort Hood, how do you believe the military should best respond to help prevent future events from happening, and also casualties should they happen?
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SFC James Baber
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I have seen and read tons of responses to this poll and question, while I support SMs being allowed to be CCW and CCL, I don't think many who have promoted all properly trained and licensed SMs being armed have looked at the big picture.


As one of my fellow senior MPs (SFC D.) has already touched on, if you have weapons carrying SMs show up at the scene prior to LE/QRF/First responders, you run the risk of the wanting to help SMs being shot by the MPs/Police/SRT/TRT members because they have to react in a split-second when they see a person with a gun, while yes they have to give an order for someone to stop and drop their weapon, if the SM who is trying to help doesn't realize that he is the one they are focused on and doesn't respond but turns towards them with his weapon pointed towards them at the same time, the LE has to follow protocol and react to protect other human lives and themselves in a split second thought process, so that SM that is trained and capable of assisting has now been shot because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, something that would not happen if all SMs that are trained and certified were not walking around strapped ready for action.


While this and other incidents are tragic and painful for all involved, it is best to leave the reaction forces and disarming of an active shooter to the personnel that are trained via MOS or academy and assigned to the job to do it, we appreciate any and all help while deployed in combat, but in garrison without knowing who is who in an active-shooter incident and coming upon a scene with a call for one or more shooters possibly will only result in the wrong shooters being shot by LE forces if they are in the area and haven't been identified as shooter friendly by 1st responders.


Again I support every SMs right to their 2nd amendment rights and to achieve their CCW/CCL, but not when it comes to carrying a weapon on post for defense/assistance, it is more headache and problem than it is worth during a reactionary moment for all involved.

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SFC James Baber
SFC James Baber
10 y
<p>SGT V,</p><p><br></p><p>After reading your response to SFC Davenport, I have to say while it may sound good to the average citizen/Soldier it has one major life/death flaw to it, if what you recommend that the individuals that are trained and vetted to carry on post with their CCW/CCL and they take up a defensive position and it becomes common knowledge that this is a capability, what is stopping the active shooter from using the same tactics as he moves through each bldg., he calls in and gives his location within bldg. such and such to keep the MPs/LE from coming into his location and then continues about his day doing what he is doing, utilizing the tactics you just rolled out as his diversion to avoid detection/capture so that he may continue in either that bldg. or another as the LE has been diverted to another location because of his bogus intel given to dispatch. </p><p><br></p><p>That right there shoots your whole theory right out the window, and as you mentioned, the SMEs that have received and been trained in this area know of these types of tactics, that is another reason for them to be against arming Soldiers who are not LE on a military installation and it is also the reason Big Army has not gone that route as well, there are to many mitigations that the avg. SM do not see or realize that have to be taken into consideration instead of just using emotional thought about how or what the normal SM should be able to do to protect themselves and others.</p><p><br></p><p>It is a good thought, just not a fully thought out or functional plan or tactic for what is reality of the situation, there are many times that the avg. SM only thinks defensively, when in reality of life, this may sound strange but personnel in the LE field have to also split their thought process two ways, 1st is the LE way and all that we have learned over the years, and 2ndly think like a criminal would think like to be cognizant of what they might want to do or are doing. There is an old saying, "to catch a crook, you have to think like a crook'" which is no truer than in a situation such as this, think of what monkey wrench I threw into your scenario, if the shooter himself calls dispatch and says I am so and so, and we are in room/bldg., we are in defensive position, this area is clear, he now thinks he is safe in that area and continues to move through the bldg. on his rampage and the LE has been diverted until someone else can call in and say he is still in such and such area. Do you see the major flaw in that way of thinking and planning for your theory.</p>
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CPT Company Commander
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SFC Barber,



I agree that the reporting to higher, or in this case the MPs while
barricaded will likely prove ineffective. It can also prove to be beneficial if the active shooter has their plan well thought out.

 



That being said almost all states, some with more stringent requirements, are allowing their citizens to earn a conceal carry license (CCL). While earning a CCL it is taught that it is not an individual’s responsibility to go after someone. You do have a right though to defend yourself and those around you if the shooter poses an imminent threat. Example being: If you are to be in the same room or area with an active shooter that begins engaging Soldiers and civilians around you, why would it be any different than off-post in a store? The local police force is likely to respond in similar fashion to the MPs for an active shooter scenario. I understand it will not be the exact same, but it will likely use similar proven tactics and procedures. A person who is legally carrying their weapon concealed is not responding or progressing further into the situation. Rather, they are defending themselves and those around them if or when the threat is presented.

 



Lastly, I believe that the military does the best they can at mitigating
risks. They establish much more stringent rules, courses, and regulations for Soldiers to ride a motorcycle. Essentially, what I am getting at is, the military has more requirements than state laws for one to be qualified to ride a motorcycle. I believe the military again could require more stringent rules in order for Soldiers to be qualified to conceal carry on post. This would likely be in addition to a state CCL as well as registering your weapon on
post. It would again cover requirements and proper fundamentals that all Soldiers who bear arms should understand. If the proper courses are established and taken it should give those able the option to earn their CCL. These are obviously just my beliefs on the topics above. There are also many aditions or alternatives that can be done, because there is no real silver bullet that solves the issue as seen in many of the responses to this initial question. Some of which include arming staff positions that are posted throughout whether it be CQ or staff duty. All in all I do not see it as an immediate solution to allow anyone who has a state CCL to be allowed to carry on post, but I believe with the proper instruction and courses provided by the military Soldiers should be afforded the same opportunity they are given when traveling off-post and going about their daily business in the real world.

 



Very Respectfully,



LT Connor McCarthy



 



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SFC Michael Hasbun
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The only "prevention" I can think of is to make military bases a more unattractive target. The only way I can see to do that is to stop the practice of having people turn in weapons in the Arms room, and adapt the IDF model of constant weapons carry, on and off duty. Immerse our personnel in weapons training and education until their weapons become an extention of themselves, and require them to have them at all times. It's not like weapons immersion training would be wasted on military personnel....
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SFC Training Nco
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Master Resiliency Training and Unit Resiliency Training Assistance, without question. This course is currently being implemented Army wide and its doctrine is focused on the individual, their characteristics, and their own personal thought patterns. It creates a sense of optimism that enables psychological health benefits and productivity. If every Soldier was able to harness these techniques and use them daily our military not only would become healthier, but their outlook on life and the lives of others would be a benevolent self assessment. It will become mandatory within a few years, but in the meantime there isn't enough awareness in the military of the legitimate case studied benefits (over 1,200 studies in the last 15 years) of resiliency training though, It should have it's own month. I would bet my ridiculous salary if that Ft.Hood Soldier was in a climate where this instruction was taught. He would have second guessed the thoughts that were influencing his emotions/actions. 
This course even teaches you how to "combat breath" to lower your heart rate (pulse) and become more relaxed in stressful conditions (sniper have been doing this since WWI) i.e. sniper shots, combat situations, arguments with spouses, disobedient children, insubordinate Soldiers, or just the daily hectics of life. Where's the Secretary of the Army in these forums I need to solicit to him!
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CW2 All Source Technician
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10 y
My Suggestion is to do the following:
1. Arm BDE and BN SDO and SDNCOs with unit provided M9s and Ammo.
2. SDO/ SDNCO personnel will account for the firearms and ammunition during shift change through established accountability procedures. (DA Form 2062)
3. SDO/ SDNCO personnel will also wear a black Duty Brassard on his or her left shoulder denoting duty position (SDO/ SDNCO) while on duty.
4. Personnel determined by Mental Health Professionals as a threat to themselves or others will not be allowed (as they shouldn’t be currently) to perform SDO/ SDNCO duties.
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SFC Michael Hasbun
SFC Michael Hasbun
10 y
Can I add to that by suggesting that we TRAIN these individuals before we arm them? I know it's popular to think that rank and competence are somehow linked, but historically that has&nbsp;often been proven a&nbsp;false assumption...
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SSG Daniel Deiler
SSG Daniel Deiler
10 y
Amen to that SSG H. I cannot even tell you how many times I've participated in a range in some capacity and Field Grade Officers and Sr. NCO's fail to qualify with their M9. Or how often some of those senior leaders hand off their weapon for their driver to clean. While it may be a hassle, proficiency at cleaning and breaking downs one's weapon IS a perishible skill.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
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Really wish this allowed two options. I never felt that a single front assault was the best solution to a problem. I think improved mental health/early warning and more open carry on base would be good options. Worst case scenario, all the toxic folks get shot a lot faster and less likely to have collateral damage.
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CW3 Armament Technician
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I think too much emphasis is placed on "treating" mental issues, with medication especially.
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CPT All Source Intelligence
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SSG Bergevine,

I feel a big part of improving mental health treatment is having the facilities to house people who are a danger to themselves or society.  Now, these individuals are given a fist full of meds and told to come back next week.  How often have we heard the story that preceding suicide, the person attempted to get help but was ignored or given minimal interventions?  
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CW3 Armament Technician
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That's a great idea ma'am. Lets shepherd all the people we deem unfit, strip them from their families, and move them into "crazy land" barracks. How wonderful that would be for morale, and the families.
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SGT Allison Churchill
SGT Allison Churchill
10 y
I don't think the captain was suggesting that every single person with a PTSD diagnosis get locked up in "crazy land" barracks. I would think she meant we equip the hospitals to actually deal with people in serious need instead of just handing people on the verge of a break a few prescriptions.

If someone had a leg blown off would you just hand them morphine without trying to stop the bleeding?
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CW3 Armament Technician
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There are plenty of places that deal with PTSD. The main hospital is not, and should not be one of them. It would overwhelm resources available to have to house a massive number of people. I know Madigan in Lewis and MAMC at Benning have their own Mental Health area/ward... but again, they pretty much lock those people away from the world, which doesn't sit right with me.
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CW5 Desk Officer
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I voted for "Improve mental health services and early warning screenings," but I really want to say that we ALL need to be vigilant and aware of not only our surroundings, but those Soldiers, civilians, etc., who are around us. Somebody had to notice that MAJ Nadal was a little "off." Nobody apparently said much of anything ... or if they did, higher wasn't paying attention.

Do people know about 1-800-CALLSPY and the iSALUTE reporting system? These are great ways to report your suspicions, hunches, etc., and have professionals - outside the chain of command - look into what may appear to be the smallest thing. Security is a team effort, and identifying insider threats takes an engaged team.
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SSG Robert Burns
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It looks like the survey has spoken.  Forward the results to the Joint Chiefs.  I expect the policy next month.
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SFC Lamont Womack
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I think there should be a few identified personnel that should be able to access firearms in the event of a shooting like this. However, I believe having everybody armed on base is a bad idea. I don't believe a situation like yesterday would have ended any better if Soldiers were allowed weapons on base. I think there would be a lot more innocent individuals who were trying to do the right thing with their firearms accidentally killed. 

I see a situation where lets say it was a few random individuals who are legally carrying their firearms walking on base and they hear gunshots near their area.  Each of these individuals approach the area by themselves from different angles with their gun not knowing there are other individuals who are not the active shooter doing the same. So they all arrive in the area of an active shooter within seconds of each other with guns drawn. Now you have multiple people in an area with guns out. In each individual's mind, who is the threat? How do you stop these individuals from shooting each other? To make things even more complicated the police arrive to see multiple people with guns drawn. Who do they engage? I think this turns into the O.K. Corral due to fear and multiple people being armed. 
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SSG Future Operations Officer
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From personal experience SFC Womack, what we need is other means to help Soldiers vs drugging us up on medication.  I was wounded in Afghanistan by getting hit by a 107mm rocket that landed literally 5 feet from where I was and threw me 10 feet from where it hit me.  I was knocked out for 45 mins and received shrapnel wounds.  I was then MEDEVACd to FOB Bagram from FOB Shank.  The crazy thing is I was only there for 2 days.  I was diagnosed with moderate traumatic brain injury and severe PTSD and many other things.  I have so many problems with me including mental instability and glaucoma.  I won't get into detail with what I have been diagnosed with, but I will tell you.  I have been in and out of the hospital on a daily basis for 2 years now.  Everytime I get seen and I when I say that the medication they prescribed me doesn't work, they up the dosage and then give me another set of medication.  This is not the way to go.  I am one of the few who went to ask for help and when I ask for help, I get medicated.  Currently, I'm on 15 different medications that I must take on daily basis just to function.  And its very frustrating to me and my family.  I have tried the yoga technique, the breathing technique, but I can't do that when I have a nightmare.  Last night my wife told me that I was screaming in bed about how I was not dead yet.  Every night I have nightsweats and during the day I'm so drugged up that I literally feel high.  I'm still active duty being treated and have to go to a brain facility in Tampa, FL next month to get re-evaluated.  I feel I need more help and someone who need to find the root cause of my problems instead of hiding them with medication.  There is no stigma as many have said, it's just that most Chain of Commands neglect to understand that the Soldiers who have been wounded especially the one's who have TBI can't think rational and can't think as fast as they did before.  People like to get upset because a Soldier with TBI don't react as fast as they would like them too and that adds stress on us.  Yes, we have anger problems, who wouldn't after being blown up?  So instead of leaders always pressuring and yelling and being upset at that Soldier when that Soldier makes a mistake.  They should have some compassion.  Don't think there is nothing wrong with them, cause when you do that, that's when we feel alone and no one cares about us.  That's coming from someone who has been through it all and still suffers everyday.   I'm asking all leaders to provide support to your wounded and comfort them, because if you haven't been through what we have been through don't even think about stating your opinion on how we should feel lucky we are alive.  When I heard someone say that too me, I flipped out because the guy next to me died and he was suppose to redeploy that day back to the states to his family. 
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SFC Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Operations Specialist
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1) Putting more weapons into the hands of service members
who are the main proprietors of these shootings is absurd. What is to say these
people aren’t themselves going to start shooting? We are welcoming an all out
war onto installations. Yes, we would have the means to protect ourselves from
those who are wishing harm upon us. But it is also making shootings easier to
carry out. Catch 22.



2) Mental Health evaluations are all well and good when
people take them seriously. Take, for example, the Global Assessment Tool that,
at least on the Army side, is an annual requirement. When is the last time
anybody took that seriously and didn’t just click, click, click done? You do it
because you have to. We can put all the road blocks, surveys, and mandatory
counseling sessions in the way of a Soldier, but if they aren’t taking it
seriously, then it is nothing more than a time eater.



3) Echoing that last point is threat reduction training and
classes. We as a force are bombarded by class after class that degrades the
morale and time we have to train in order to be mission ready. While I will
admit that a lot of the classes like SHARP, EO, etc. are great for refreshers,
but enough is enough. If the population attending the class isn’t paying
attention, then it is nothing more than a waste of time.



4) While there may be signs in some instances, that will not
always be the case. Sometimes people can be just fine one day and overnight
they snap because too much has piled up. Once again, it is up to the individual
to be honest.



With that in mind, all that can be done, if anything at all,
is increase the security at the gate. I, for one, maintain that no privately
owned weapons should be on post at all. Also, with these new scan your ID card “rapid
entry systems” popping up all over the place, it is so easy to get on any
installation. Whether dependant, service member, or DoD Civilian, it is so easy
to get on post with anything and anyone. While I know my opinions may not be
the most popular, they make the most sense.



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Cpl Bulk Fuel Specialist
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10 y
How about this no more open posts? Sgt I agree with you. I my opinion if you leave the door open eventually the trash will roll in.
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PO1 Field Service Engineer
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The .gov trained the vast majority of us to operate a weapon effectively and carry one safely... why not allow active duty to carry?  It's bad enough we have hundreds of sitting ducks in gun free zones all over this country, but the people we have trained to handle weapons are also sitting ducks.  Criminals and crazies don't pay ANY attention to gun laws.
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SFC James Baber
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This is a hard vote as all of the choices are viable resources and could each in its own way help with the situation at hand and for the future as well.


Also each and everyone has its own drawbacks as well too.

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