Posted on May 29, 2015
How do CSMs select the best future SFCs of the Army?
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I've always wondered what exactly is looked for while the board is being conducted. I know we have all been told throughout our careers that NCOERs, 1059s(Commadants List), Schools, College, Physical fitness, Duty Positions and general appearance are highly looked upon.
However, every time the board results are released there's many Soldiers who lack a lot of what's asked of them, leaving with a sequence number. Then there are Soldiers who have done everything they possibly could, even volunteering for the worst jobs i.e. Drill Sergeant & R.I. who get looked over.
Am I missing something? I feel I've done everything I could. I know I lack ranger, but I have strong NCOERs and everything else I've listed above. Don't refrain from honesty, but what else could I or anyone else looking for that next level of responsibility do?
However, every time the board results are released there's many Soldiers who lack a lot of what's asked of them, leaving with a sequence number. Then there are Soldiers who have done everything they possibly could, even volunteering for the worst jobs i.e. Drill Sergeant & R.I. who get looked over.
Am I missing something? I feel I've done everything I could. I know I lack ranger, but I have strong NCOERs and everything else I've listed above. Don't refrain from honesty, but what else could I or anyone else looking for that next level of responsibility do?
Promotion Board
HRC
Infantry
CSM
SGM
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 23
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In my experience it has a lot to do with being transparent to your Job, meaning you should look to broaden your assignments as best as you can, I agree with CSM Oldsen to an extent, if you know that you are going to be successful by changing over to an 11B then you should, however; it comes with a cost and I think he nailed it. you have to be 100% certain that will enhance your career path. I have had SSG's that have re classed to 11B from 11C but keep in mind they had the "V" and it made since for them.
follow the trend of what the board is looking for, as well as the Army. its not a secret they publish the field board every time the have a board. that is the golden ticket for NCOs. Be competitive in your field, update your records accordingly, and be patient. I know its easy to say these things but look at what you think you have to do in order to separate yourself from your peer group and do it. In the Army today you must be marketable. best of luck!
follow the trend of what the board is looking for, as well as the Army. its not a secret they publish the field board every time the have a board. that is the golden ticket for NCOs. Be competitive in your field, update your records accordingly, and be patient. I know its easy to say these things but look at what you think you have to do in order to separate yourself from your peer group and do it. In the Army today you must be marketable. best of luck!
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SSG Phillip Moore I am a person who believes in "everything happens for a reason" and when it's time to get promoted you will get promoted. I am a prime believer of always working a level higher than my pay grade. Taking myself as a example I always put myself up front regardless of the mission or the task and accomplish it no matter what. I take care of troops day by day. Throughout my army career I have met a lot of different soldiers peers, subordinates and seniors that I have learned so much from on what not to do and what to do right. If you are planning on making this 20+ years you will excel I have no doubt of that brother.
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SPC Robert Halvorson is the only one so far on this thread that is looking forward to what folks need to do for the next round of boards. The new NCOER system, with rater and senior rater profiles, changes promotion boards for NCOs completely. No longer will the vast majority of NCOERs viewed by the board members be top-blocks. If this tracks to anything like officer promotions and evaluations, the only things that will matter are 1) senior rater block check and 2) the first sentence of the senior rater comment. Anything but a top block check from the senior rater ( limited to 49% of the profile, as confirmed at time of submission to DA by DA) and a quantifiable stratification in the first sentence of the senior rater comments ("#1 of 11,000 SFC I senior rate") will matter. This likely includes the robust comments on this thread about folks doing extra stuff to improve their records----extra schools and etc might help one get a top block, but the top block is all that will matter. The only reason extra stuff is now looked at for boards is that everyone gets a top block because there is currently no forced distribution for ratings. With forced distribution, only top performers as documented on the NCOER will get promoted.
I hope HRC's training for the new NCOER emphasizes this point, and provides instruction on how to manage rater and senior rater profiles. As SSG Roger Ayscue and others note, folks on small populations suffer a bit with forced distribution, although raters are given 3 empty slots to pad their profile.
Also, I might be wrong on my expectations. Despite the new system, CSMs on boards might still prioritize things like ribbon order and the DA photo above documented performance; as others have alluded, we'll likely never know, as the Army isn't exactly transparent with the facts about why folks get promoted or not, and I doubt that will change with the new NCOER.
I also still wonder about the legality of including a photo in a promotion packet. Bias being an unconcious thing, surely showing the board a photo triggers the unconcious biases of the board members. Maybe someday someone will sue the Army to change this potentially discriminatory process, which would probably lead to a higher emphasis placed on performance. After all, if the board members don't spend half their time inspecting the da photo, they could focus more on evaluated performance.
At any rate, it will be 3-5 years before there are enough of the new NCOERs in the system to make an evaluation. That's unfortunate, because it does add a bit more uncertainty to what appears to already be a rather uncertain process.
I hope HRC's training for the new NCOER emphasizes this point, and provides instruction on how to manage rater and senior rater profiles. As SSG Roger Ayscue and others note, folks on small populations suffer a bit with forced distribution, although raters are given 3 empty slots to pad their profile.
Also, I might be wrong on my expectations. Despite the new system, CSMs on boards might still prioritize things like ribbon order and the DA photo above documented performance; as others have alluded, we'll likely never know, as the Army isn't exactly transparent with the facts about why folks get promoted or not, and I doubt that will change with the new NCOER.
I also still wonder about the legality of including a photo in a promotion packet. Bias being an unconcious thing, surely showing the board a photo triggers the unconcious biases of the board members. Maybe someday someone will sue the Army to change this potentially discriminatory process, which would probably lead to a higher emphasis placed on performance. After all, if the board members don't spend half their time inspecting the da photo, they could focus more on evaluated performance.
At any rate, it will be 3-5 years before there are enough of the new NCOERs in the system to make an evaluation. That's unfortunate, because it does add a bit more uncertainty to what appears to already be a rather uncertain process.
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CW2(P) (Join to see) maybe this post, will give you some insight.
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/senior-nco-board-tips-in-a-recent-army-times-article-for-the-fy-2015-msg-board-what-are-your-thoughts
https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/senior-nco-board-tips-in-a-recent-army-times-article-for-the-fy-2015-msg-board-what-are-your-thoughts
Senior NCO Board Tips, In A Recent Army Times Article For The FY 2015 MSG Board. (What are your...
First and Foremost Congrats to all the newly selected Master Sergeants. I always want to pass on information, so all is aware of the boards AARs comments. End result (hence) promotion next year! A senior NCO selection board again has reported that too many soldiers have missing or inaccurate official photos in the documents packet that will determine if they get promoted. As with previous boards, missing and inaccurate photos put soldiers on...
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I really believe that they use a really big dart board with all the names on it. Then they are given darts equal to the amount of SFC's they can promote for the fiscal year. Then they put on blind folds and take turns throwing at the board. Once that is complete they hand write the names selected onto college ruled paper in reverse alphabitical order so as to use all the time given for the selection board.
In all seriousness....keep doing what you are doing....eventually they will realize your potential and select you. I was looked at four times before being selected so I know how you feel. Keep looking for jobs with increased responsibility and make sure it is stated so on your NCOERs.
Hopefully the dart hit your name come July!! Good luck!!
In all seriousness....keep doing what you are doing....eventually they will realize your potential and select you. I was looked at four times before being selected so I know how you feel. Keep looking for jobs with increased responsibility and make sure it is stated so on your NCOERs.
Hopefully the dart hit your name come July!! Good luck!!
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Brother, Obviously I don't know or I would not have retired as a Staff Sergeant.
I continue to feel that the DA centralized boards should be required to tell each and every NCO that does not get selected WHY he did not get selected.
I still believe and will till the day I die feel that they do not release board scores to avoid class action lawsuits like when the white male officers sued, AND WON, because the officer selection boards used race and/or gender as a determining factor.
I had a first sergeant once that when I raised that possibility, he asked me "well, are you not willing to take one for the team so that they can correct the issues of the past?" and a Command Sergeant Major that told me I should change my ethnicity to Native American (My grandmother was Cherokee), and...I heard a female NCO telling a female NCO that was not going to reenlist "Reup...You are black and female, you will make E-8 at least."
So, if you want to prevent this crap, just release the board score of EVERYONE, and prove that NOT ONE single individual got a second look because of race or ethnicity. Transparency is a must.
I continue to feel that the DA centralized boards should be required to tell each and every NCO that does not get selected WHY he did not get selected.
I still believe and will till the day I die feel that they do not release board scores to avoid class action lawsuits like when the white male officers sued, AND WON, because the officer selection boards used race and/or gender as a determining factor.
I had a first sergeant once that when I raised that possibility, he asked me "well, are you not willing to take one for the team so that they can correct the issues of the past?" and a Command Sergeant Major that told me I should change my ethnicity to Native American (My grandmother was Cherokee), and...I heard a female NCO telling a female NCO that was not going to reenlist "Reup...You are black and female, you will make E-8 at least."
So, if you want to prevent this crap, just release the board score of EVERYONE, and prove that NOT ONE single individual got a second look because of race or ethnicity. Transparency is a must.
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When it comes to NCOERs, at least with the ones from a few years ago, you had to take a lot of things into consideration - who the rating chain was, were they full of BS, were they lazy, was there obvious signs of something not passing the smell test, etc.
You mentioned a few other things I looked at:
1059's-Exceed course standards? What schools?
College Hours?
APFT?
Duty/Leadership Positions?
A few other things I looked for:
Deployments?
Official Photo?
Awards?
Military Correspondence Courses?
Volunteer Work?
I wanted to know what you had done to make yourself a better Soldier since joining the military and what you had done recently. If you hadn't done anything in the past 12 to 24 months, you were basically telling me you were done learning and growing and therefore I wasn't going to consider you. You can always take a correspondence course, improve your APFT, volunteer or mentor someone - do something to learn or grow and try to improve yourself.
You mentioned a few other things I looked at:
1059's-Exceed course standards? What schools?
College Hours?
APFT?
Duty/Leadership Positions?
A few other things I looked for:
Deployments?
Official Photo?
Awards?
Military Correspondence Courses?
Volunteer Work?
I wanted to know what you had done to make yourself a better Soldier since joining the military and what you had done recently. If you hadn't done anything in the past 12 to 24 months, you were basically telling me you were done learning and growing and therefore I wasn't going to consider you. You can always take a correspondence course, improve your APFT, volunteer or mentor someone - do something to learn or grow and try to improve yourself.
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CSM (Join to see)
SSG Roger Ayscue , It is very unfortunate things did not work out better for you.
I personally have never been a part of a promotion board that was anything other than professional, impartial and fair, without regard for any quotas relating to EO or preference for race, gender, Masonic affiliation, or anything else.
I want to see your photo, but when I look at it I only see Army green (now blue) and nothing else. I want to see how your uniform fits you and to see if you're an overweight fat slob and your uniform buttons are about to pop off, and your APFT card was probably pencil whipped. I want to see if you are wearing ribbons and badges you aren't authorized and/or if you are FUBAR and have them all out of order and the wrong devices and appurtenances on them or have them turned the wrong direction. I want to see if your hair is within regulation, and if you're a man and have a mustache, is it within reg, and if you're a woman and wearing earrings, are they within reg (and if you're a man, you better not be wearing any). I have sat on boards for Soldier's selected for CSM who were denied because of some of these very reasons.
You made several references about Command Sergeants Major who either were corrupt or lacked honor and integrity. You may have known some who did not live up to the NCO Creed and the Army Values, but I would like to believe they were the exception, and not the rule.
I have said this in other posts - my advice to young troops is to keep a file of notes and articles and things for their next rank of things they want to do once they make it and things they want to make sure they don't do. Once you make that rank, refer back to those notes periodically to keep them grounded and not lose sight of where they wanted to go. You can learn a lot about what kind of leader you want to style yourself after when you see things done wrong as much or more than when things are done right.
I personally have never been a part of a promotion board that was anything other than professional, impartial and fair, without regard for any quotas relating to EO or preference for race, gender, Masonic affiliation, or anything else.
I want to see your photo, but when I look at it I only see Army green (now blue) and nothing else. I want to see how your uniform fits you and to see if you're an overweight fat slob and your uniform buttons are about to pop off, and your APFT card was probably pencil whipped. I want to see if you are wearing ribbons and badges you aren't authorized and/or if you are FUBAR and have them all out of order and the wrong devices and appurtenances on them or have them turned the wrong direction. I want to see if your hair is within regulation, and if you're a man and have a mustache, is it within reg, and if you're a woman and wearing earrings, are they within reg (and if you're a man, you better not be wearing any). I have sat on boards for Soldier's selected for CSM who were denied because of some of these very reasons.
You made several references about Command Sergeants Major who either were corrupt or lacked honor and integrity. You may have known some who did not live up to the NCO Creed and the Army Values, but I would like to believe they were the exception, and not the rule.
I have said this in other posts - my advice to young troops is to keep a file of notes and articles and things for their next rank of things they want to do once they make it and things they want to make sure they don't do. Once you make that rank, refer back to those notes periodically to keep them grounded and not lose sight of where they wanted to go. You can learn a lot about what kind of leader you want to style yourself after when you see things done wrong as much or more than when things are done right.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
That is why, at the very start of every post I have made here that all I ever asked for was to start informing individuals why they did not make it. Especially in this world of high speed electronics, that way the NCO that did not make it can fix what he fell short on. Who knows it might make the Army a better place
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SFC Steven Harvey
SSG Ayscue you realize every accomplishment you listed falls under awards right?
That is a +/- or nothing in 6-8 areas only. Your NCOERs give the hard number followed by the smaller categories of Character, Education, Awards, Ht/Wt PT, job diversity, etc (can't remember them all).
You have to get 4 out of 6 +s to get a + on top of your hard number.
There are all sorts of things, you cults be Ranger, Sapper tabbed, Airborn air assault and pathfinder qualified as a cook and if your records or photo is off they could give you a 4 without ever caring about the NCOERs.
I'm not making excuses just pointing that out, but I agree with an email giving your comments and how you rated to your peers would be great info to have.
That is a +/- or nothing in 6-8 areas only. Your NCOERs give the hard number followed by the smaller categories of Character, Education, Awards, Ht/Wt PT, job diversity, etc (can't remember them all).
You have to get 4 out of 6 +s to get a + on top of your hard number.
There are all sorts of things, you cults be Ranger, Sapper tabbed, Airborn air assault and pathfinder qualified as a cook and if your records or photo is off they could give you a 4 without ever caring about the NCOERs.
I'm not making excuses just pointing that out, but I agree with an email giving your comments and how you rated to your peers would be great info to have.
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Not sure how I got it on my first look! Must had puppy dog eyes in the DA photo! lol
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SFC Joseph James
Do you mean "My butt was a blank check"? or "If you pick me...well...just write in what you want to make it happen!"? lol
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Remember that it is not all about your records and accomplishments. You could be the best of the best in the whole board but be in an MOS that is over strength and therefore, not receive a sequence number. There could be a rag bag that is qualified for promotion while you are best qualified and sharp as a tack but again, his MOS is new, 25D is an example, and they need to fill the ranks.
It may not sound fair but think of it holistically. If we only promoted the hard charging infantry types with tabs and badges we would have no senior leaders for the other MOS out there. The semi-centralized and centralized promotion systems are not geared for individuals but the Army as a whole.
It may not sound fair but think of it holistically. If we only promoted the hard charging infantry types with tabs and badges we would have no senior leaders for the other MOS out there. The semi-centralized and centralized promotion systems are not geared for individuals but the Army as a whole.
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I also have an question towards this topic... I'd like to view it differently.. I'm in the national guard for 7 years and have been active for 6. Years always on orders(AGR and ADOS) my boat is also my NCOER are 1 and 2 with overall potential always an 1 and bullet mention promote ahead of peers and put in higher position...my awards, pt, ASI, schools,NCOES etc. are always top three SGT in the battalion or higher. I also compete in competition and won them and made my self an name.. I'm awaiting my staff where as this situation I'm first on the promotion list as an 31B (military police). Then again I'm worried I won't be getting it due to good boy system as well as them not reading my documents and seeing the potential I may have.
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1SG (Join to see)
The National Guard does present some unique differences in the selection process and I think even though there is some standardizations between States there are still some differences. If you are the first person on the promotion list I don't think that you have a lot to worry about, but you cannot rely that the board will have the some selection cirteria next year either. You also need to look at the density of your MOS which can also hold you back. If there are not many units this prevents those above you from moving and slowing the entire promotion system. There is no real solution to this other than consider transferring units to gain another MOS that has more upward mobility.
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SSG (Join to see)
My new question would be can an solider that's on a currently MOS promotion list get on orders for an different MOS and still get promoted off of his MOS he currently listed as when turned in his 4100?
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SSG (Join to see)
I checked your profile and the current unit you are with is the one I'm trying to get in to .. I'm currently am ORNG member I sent you an contact reply, seeking further guidance . I know last week control numbers were given but I wasn't on that push I assume currently the 1186th doesn't have any vacancies at this time. It that safe to say?
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1SG (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) I'll address two things here for the benefit of others and address the unit question via the PM you sent. 1) Since you were unable to check a mileage preference, you will have to check with your full time staff that has access to the system to see what it reflects (the OML this year does not show that info on the printout). 2) The short answer to your question regarding being a 31B on your 4100 and getting orders to a new unit with a new MOS (I'm assuming you mean a transfer to reclass) and being able to be promoted in the new MOS from this years OML is no. PM me if you want the full explanation...
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