Posted on Dec 7, 2015
How do we Reshape America’s Views of Veterans?
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How do we Reshape America’s Views of Veterans?
RP Members what are your recommendations for reshaping the views on how America views veterans?
Fully realizing the benefits that vets can bring to civilian life means changing the distorted way they are perceived.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/reshaping-americas-views-of-veterans [login to see]
A newspaper writer laments: “On their return home after their long absence from society, and from industry, many of these brave men . . . find it difficult to get the opportunity at once to return to their old avocations. Their places in the workshops or elsewhere are filled up; and having but little money, and having lost to some extent the facility for securing employment or the friends who might have helped them to find it, they are greatly discouraged and disheartened, and their families suffer.”
Sound familiar? That’s the New York Times in June 1865. And yet here we are, 150 years on, with vets dying while waiting for medical care, 50,000 vets homeless, unemployment among post-9/11 vets consistently above the average, and just half of those who go to college actually finishing.
What we really most need is a long march through the institutions, to borrow a phrase. Send your kids to ROTC-friendly colleges. Don’t shell out for movies that offer a limited, fantasy view of the military. We must praise our vets’ service. But praise is easy. What’s hard is helping vets return to civilian life. That will happen when we recognize most aren’t Hollywood heroes or damaged goods, but civic assets.
RP Members what are your recommendations for reshaping the views on how America views veterans?
Fully realizing the benefits that vets can bring to civilian life means changing the distorted way they are perceived.
http://www.wsj.com/articles/reshaping-americas-views-of-veterans [login to see]
A newspaper writer laments: “On their return home after their long absence from society, and from industry, many of these brave men . . . find it difficult to get the opportunity at once to return to their old avocations. Their places in the workshops or elsewhere are filled up; and having but little money, and having lost to some extent the facility for securing employment or the friends who might have helped them to find it, they are greatly discouraged and disheartened, and their families suffer.”
Sound familiar? That’s the New York Times in June 1865. And yet here we are, 150 years on, with vets dying while waiting for medical care, 50,000 vets homeless, unemployment among post-9/11 vets consistently above the average, and just half of those who go to college actually finishing.
What we really most need is a long march through the institutions, to borrow a phrase. Send your kids to ROTC-friendly colleges. Don’t shell out for movies that offer a limited, fantasy view of the military. We must praise our vets’ service. But praise is easy. What’s hard is helping vets return to civilian life. That will happen when we recognize most aren’t Hollywood heroes or damaged goods, but civic assets.
United States
Transition
What Would You Do
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 15
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
It's true we need to reshape how civilians think about veterans. There is this image that all we do is kill. It's evident even in children, I had a child reply to me, "Oh, you kill people". It's perpetuated in the movies and media over and over.
It's true we need to reshape how civilians think about veterans. There is this image that all we do is kill. It's evident even in children, I had a child reply to me, "Oh, you kill people". It's perpetuated in the movies and media over and over.
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COL Ted Mc
SGT Francis Wright
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
by Rudyard Kipling (1892)
I went into a public-'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an' sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls be'ind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins", when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fightin', Lord! they'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide,
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins" when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind",
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir", when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool -- you bet that Tommy sees!
by Rudyard Kipling (1892)
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SGT Francis Wright
COL Ted Mc, I wasn't sure where Kipling was going with it. But he's right. They have no interest in us, unless they need us. Wonder what they would do if they had to Defend themselves or the Country? Could be interesting.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
CPT (Join to see) You bring up some valid points and I don't know if we can get past that stigma - COL Ted Mc nice! SGT Francis Wright You are right in response above - only when the crap hits the fan!
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COL Ted Mc
COL Mikel J. Burroughs - Mikel; It's as "American as Mom and Apple Pie" for the US government to ignore its veterans. The tradition stretches back to the War of Independence and has been upheld in every war ever since.
Why people would expect that the government would change now is rather puzzling - especially when the electorate tells the government to spend less money.
Why people would expect that the government would change now is rather puzzling - especially when the electorate tells the government to spend less money.
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Suspended Profile
Mandatory national service for all 18 year olds, except those with legitimate medical exemptions...
SGT William Howell
LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow Trust me you think you want that, but you don't want that. I have served with former several Easter Block countries that had conscripts. They were not what you would consider excited about being in and they were next to useless in being effective combat multiplier.
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Suspended Profile
SGT William Howell I think of Israel as a model of success in this way. Eastern Block conscripts are in very bad ways because of how poorly they are treated and paid by their countries, especially in the days of the Soviet.
The reality is that it would be very costly to set up an effective national service program up front, but it would pay huge dividends on the back side. Getting people out of ghetto life and giving them skills and hope is huge. Teaching young adults self-discipline is another huge victory.
The reality is that it would be very costly to set up an effective national service program up front, but it would pay huge dividends on the back side. Getting people out of ghetto life and giving them skills and hope is huge. Teaching young adults self-discipline is another huge victory.
SGT William Howell
LCDR Rabbah Rona Matlow I believe that Israel is the exception, not the rule. Israel lives with the threat everyday of being attacked. They are warriors and they walk the walk because they have to. Israeli pride and sense of nationalism is leaps and bounds above the US.
We practically give free college education to those that are minorities and those that we do not give free education we give them slots over those that have done better academically. Yet they are not being taken advantage of. I am not saying it is right or wrong, what I am saying is that there is still a disproportionate number of black and hispanic students that graduate and move into the workforce even with being given advantages over other students.
If we were to force conscript military service it would be nothing more than a social experiment that would lower our ability to defend our country. Some would benefit, but most would not.
We practically give free college education to those that are minorities and those that we do not give free education we give them slots over those that have done better academically. Yet they are not being taken advantage of. I am not saying it is right or wrong, what I am saying is that there is still a disproportionate number of black and hispanic students that graduate and move into the workforce even with being given advantages over other students.
If we were to force conscript military service it would be nothing more than a social experiment that would lower our ability to defend our country. Some would benefit, but most would not.
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Suspended Profile
Israel does not have mandatory military service, but national service. There is a difference. There are many Israelis who perform non-military service. That is the model the US needs to follow. With things like the Conservation Corps, AmeriCorps, etc, there are plenty of non-military positions to fill.
Keep in mind that the WPA saved the US after the Depression. This type of program puts people in productive roles and gives them hope and self esteem. That is far more powerful than any affirmative action program.
That being said, there are myriad minorities who do extremely well. My niece is African American, and she graduated UC Berkeley in 3 years, and got an MEd from Stanford in just over a year. This put her in the classroom as one of the youngest teachers on record. And her father, an exceptional educator, also has a BA from Cal and an MA from Stanford...
Keep in mind that the WPA saved the US after the Depression. This type of program puts people in productive roles and gives them hope and self esteem. That is far more powerful than any affirmative action program.
That being said, there are myriad minorities who do extremely well. My niece is African American, and she graduated UC Berkeley in 3 years, and got an MEd from Stanford in just over a year. This put her in the classroom as one of the youngest teachers on record. And her father, an exceptional educator, also has a BA from Cal and an MA from Stanford...
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs Reshaping the views of US citizens could be accomplished by
1. POTUS Obama using his bully pulpit repeatedly over the next year to change his narrative and move away from focusing on victimization and move towards lauding selfless service to teis nation by America's veterans and police forces. This could have a significant impact on those progressives who have consistently voted for him who have a low opinion of the military service members, veterans and police force members.
2. For those of us who are military service members or veterans we can do a good job of representing the constituency we are members of and not drawing attention to ourselves by bad behavior. it generally take repeated good behavior to overcome one incidence of bad behavior.
1. POTUS Obama using his bully pulpit repeatedly over the next year to change his narrative and move away from focusing on victimization and move towards lauding selfless service to teis nation by America's veterans and police forces. This could have a significant impact on those progressives who have consistently voted for him who have a low opinion of the military service members, veterans and police force members.
2. For those of us who are military service members or veterans we can do a good job of representing the constituency we are members of and not drawing attention to ourselves by bad behavior. it generally take repeated good behavior to overcome one incidence of bad behavior.
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That's hard to do when the liberal media looks upon us as Break glass in case of emergency and any other time out of site out of mind. For example. They are more interested in bringing in Syrian Refugees than helping the 50,000 homeless vets.
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Sir, by maintaining what we are, who we are, and the standards that we maintained while in service. You don't need to carry the rank with you, just what made you get to that level.
My primary counter is the LTC who got on Fox news and blatantly disrespected the president. He is what folks are going to see being he is an officer, a vet, and now a retiree. You don't have to like the president for his policies, but you DO need to respect his position, and he threw all that out the door. My second counter will be those who think since they wore the uniform, deployed 50thoudandand1 times, the country owes them something. I see this a lot on FB and it's even mode worse by vet pages who take this and "support" it using the herd mentality. When we're ready to stand up and be the stewards of professionalism we should be, we're going to be seen as "second" class leeching citizens who believe we're special, better than the common man, and disrespectful.
To caveat this, I will freely admit I believe I am special. I believe I am one of the best people to come out of America's womb. I also believe I owe people for the chances I've been given for all the screwing up I did in uniform. But I try to give back both on here and the vet orgs here in VA. I owe a lot of people. And paying it forward and hoping a future NCO doesn't do what I did, or a future Soldier can look at me and say I want to be like him (without the massive number of 4856's). I am the best because I want others to be better.
My primary counter is the LTC who got on Fox news and blatantly disrespected the president. He is what folks are going to see being he is an officer, a vet, and now a retiree. You don't have to like the president for his policies, but you DO need to respect his position, and he threw all that out the door. My second counter will be those who think since they wore the uniform, deployed 50thoudandand1 times, the country owes them something. I see this a lot on FB and it's even mode worse by vet pages who take this and "support" it using the herd mentality. When we're ready to stand up and be the stewards of professionalism we should be, we're going to be seen as "second" class leeching citizens who believe we're special, better than the common man, and disrespectful.
To caveat this, I will freely admit I believe I am special. I believe I am one of the best people to come out of America's womb. I also believe I owe people for the chances I've been given for all the screwing up I did in uniform. But I try to give back both on here and the vet orgs here in VA. I owe a lot of people. And paying it forward and hoping a future NCO doesn't do what I did, or a future Soldier can look at me and say I want to be like him (without the massive number of 4856's). I am the best because I want others to be better.
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We reshape their views by educating them about what we do. I think we must become someone transparent so they can get a better understanding of what we do also. For many years after I retired I wouldn't talk about what I saw or did in Iraq, I now am becoming more comfortable sharing my experiences in combat with civilians and it is actually like a therapy to me by getting it out and talking about it.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs I am not sure that we need to change anybody's thought process about us Vets.
There are many things that bother me about wanting to change the view of who us vets are.
There are over 19 million vets and there is around 50,000 homeless vet. That is .002%. Is it too much? You bet, but it is too much for anybody to be homeless, not just vets. Homeless vets are easier to track than other members of society. The actual number of homeless can not be counted just because of the nature of homelessness, but the number of homeless school children (Which can be tracked.) is believed to be about 1.4 million. That is a society issue, not a vet issue, that needs to be addressed.
We are the warrior class of society. There is nothing wrong with people viewing us as that. Not all of us have killed, but every one of us has trained to kill. People are not wrong in the assumption that we come from a culture of violence. They just have to understand this culture also comes with a huge moral compass and ethics not found in the civilian world.
Other issues like unemployed and college are made to look worse than they are because numbers are not being compared apples to apples. The average veteran works on average 10 years longer than a civilian. That is ten years longer they may be looking for work. "Employed" to the government means they have a job, but it does not mean that they are not under-employed. I have not seen any facts, but I would bet that the amount of vets under-employed is far less than the national average. Collage drop out rates are at around 55% for the nation so there is no epidemic of vets that can't make it to graduation. If you compare vets attending collage having a family to support - to those that did not serve with a family, they are probably much more successful. Again, just an opinion no facts to back that up.
My last thought. PTSD. In order to bring PTSD to light and get treatment for those vets who have it, we had to make it an issue so the nation of voters would hold congress accountable. We put it out there and it worked. The consequence to that is society thinks every vet has PTSD even though that is not the case. Being someone that was one of the lucky ones and did not get PTSD, I can live with that stereotype because people now have some understanding and those with PTSD are now getting help.
There are many things that bother me about wanting to change the view of who us vets are.
There are over 19 million vets and there is around 50,000 homeless vet. That is .002%. Is it too much? You bet, but it is too much for anybody to be homeless, not just vets. Homeless vets are easier to track than other members of society. The actual number of homeless can not be counted just because of the nature of homelessness, but the number of homeless school children (Which can be tracked.) is believed to be about 1.4 million. That is a society issue, not a vet issue, that needs to be addressed.
We are the warrior class of society. There is nothing wrong with people viewing us as that. Not all of us have killed, but every one of us has trained to kill. People are not wrong in the assumption that we come from a culture of violence. They just have to understand this culture also comes with a huge moral compass and ethics not found in the civilian world.
Other issues like unemployed and college are made to look worse than they are because numbers are not being compared apples to apples. The average veteran works on average 10 years longer than a civilian. That is ten years longer they may be looking for work. "Employed" to the government means they have a job, but it does not mean that they are not under-employed. I have not seen any facts, but I would bet that the amount of vets under-employed is far less than the national average. Collage drop out rates are at around 55% for the nation so there is no epidemic of vets that can't make it to graduation. If you compare vets attending collage having a family to support - to those that did not serve with a family, they are probably much more successful. Again, just an opinion no facts to back that up.
My last thought. PTSD. In order to bring PTSD to light and get treatment for those vets who have it, we had to make it an issue so the nation of voters would hold congress accountable. We put it out there and it worked. The consequence to that is society thinks every vet has PTSD even though that is not the case. Being someone that was one of the lucky ones and did not get PTSD, I can live with that stereotype because people now have some understanding and those with PTSD are now getting help.
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SGT William Howell
COL Mikel J. Burroughs Just so you know. I always love what you put out. While I don't always agree, it always makes me think and formulate an opinion. Keep up the good work.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs
SGT William Howell Sometimes I put out stuff that I want the RP Family to disagree with as well. I like everyone's feedback - that's what make this a great site for everyone. Thank you for the compliment! Likewise!
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I think we can change perspectives of the military by first dealing with the perceptions that veterans and service members are all PTSD crazy and obnoxious. We know thats not the case but some civilians I talk to say thats thier first impression without ever taking to the veteran. Hollywood has made us all look like we are Rambo and that hurts alot of vets looking to get jobs. I remember a soldier in my unit saying he didnt get hired because he was a national guard member, now they didn't come out and say that to his face but he heard it from a friend that works in HR. So we need more exposure to our true skills and accomplishments which starts with veterans talking to employer's. Not all companies are bad I know a few that are military friendly.
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COL Mikel J. Burroughs - Mikel; What I find most surprising is that, in a society which has a lengthy history of glorifying violence, those who commit violence at the behest of that society are scorned.
You'd think that they'd be swamped by throngs of people demanding that they recount all the gory details of how they "slaughtered the Muslim hordes" from the moment they got off the plane.
You'd think that they'd be swamped by throngs of people demanding that they recount all the gory details of how they "slaughtered the Muslim hordes" from the moment they got off the plane.
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