Posted on Jun 2, 2023
How hard is it to chapter a Soldier with an approved retirement date?
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This is just a research question because I couldn’t find a solid answer in the regs.
Retirement
Discharge
Career Counselor
Career Advice
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 65
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If he is retiring, leave him alone. It used to aggravate me that ring bangers were so GI. He has done his time, why would anyone want to harass him now? Maybe he is old and worn out and cannot do PT like a 20 yoa soldier or a few too many beers have swollen his gut a bit, but that not a reason to throw him out short of his retirement
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SPC Patricia K. (Williams) Elliott
I agree with Major Reams-leave him alone and let him retire! He's earned it with his years of service! My husband went through this back in 1983 when he had to be extended for 2 months to meet his 20 years. The CO at that time was a real pain and was refusing to extend him because he couldn't run the mile in PT. His Battalion Commander stepped in, and my husband was able to complete his 20 years and retire.
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SGT Mark Friedman
Ring knocker were some of the biggest ASSHOLEs I ever worked with... But also some of the best...... And I agree with the general statement. If they have served their time honorably and are preparing to separate, leave them alone. Transition to life outside the Brotherhood/Sisterhood of military service is bad enought
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Since it likely means that Soldier has over 18 years of AFS (otherwise they wouldn't have an approved retirement date), you'll have an extremely high bar that has to be met because you'd be bumping up against federal law*. Because of this, HQDA must approve any involuntary discharge of a Soldier with 18 years or more of service unless it's due to the sentence of a court-martial or for physical disability.
This doesn't mean you can't process a Soldier to be discharged under another separation chapter, but it will likely have to be for serious misconduct (i.e., Chapter 10, 14, etc), and the separation will have to be approved at the Department level. If you were thinking along the lines of failure of the ABCP or something of the like, it likely would be a waste of time as the totality of service is considered when possibly denying an eligible Solider their retirement.
This doesn't mean a commander's hands are tied regarding other administration actions, if warranted, just that if anything affects the retirement it will have to be staffed through HRC to the approval authority (SECARMY or designated rep).
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* 10 U.S. Code § 1176 (retention of enlisted members with more than 18, but less than 20, years of service) - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/1176
* https://www.hrc.army.mil/content/Enlisted%20Separations%20Process
This doesn't mean you can't process a Soldier to be discharged under another separation chapter, but it will likely have to be for serious misconduct (i.e., Chapter 10, 14, etc), and the separation will have to be approved at the Department level. If you were thinking along the lines of failure of the ABCP or something of the like, it likely would be a waste of time as the totality of service is considered when possibly denying an eligible Solider their retirement.
This doesn't mean a commander's hands are tied regarding other administration actions, if warranted, just that if anything affects the retirement it will have to be staffed through HRC to the approval authority (SECARMY or designated rep).
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* 10 U.S. Code § 1176 (retention of enlisted members with more than 18, but less than 20, years of service) - https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/10/1176
* https://www.hrc.army.mil/content/Enlisted%20Separations%20Process
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CPT (Join to see)
Sir, You are very much like the Buddha of Perscom! You should have made it to GenOff.
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CPT (Join to see)
They do what they want and then try to "wash their habs of it." They did in my case. Been there. Done that. Still fighting.they kniw that if they do what they want it is up to you to fight it. Then, if you win, it is up to the Board of "Corrections" to fix it, which in most cases they will not do regardless of a Federal Court's opinion.
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Suspended Profile
MAJ Taylor, I think some of the comments to you from others are quite good. BUT...the Soldier's commander (if that's not you) doesn't have to guess about this. The commander's resource in this case is your command's Inspector General (IG).
My Brigade CSM and I would frequently use the IG to clarify policies and responsibilities prescribed in various regulations; even when we thought that we had the answer, or reasonably could understand the regulation. In this regard, Co and Bn Cmd teams should also employ the IG. Importantly, some regulations will state that the "commander MUST initiate a separation action" based on the deficiency/offense. In this case of a Soldier with an approved retirement, the IG can clarify the regulation and tell the commander what responsibilities and what options the Cdr has.
Save yourself time and headache and engage your IG and make a sound decision using good judgment.
My Brigade CSM and I would frequently use the IG to clarify policies and responsibilities prescribed in various regulations; even when we thought that we had the answer, or reasonably could understand the regulation. In this regard, Co and Bn Cmd teams should also employ the IG. Importantly, some regulations will state that the "commander MUST initiate a separation action" based on the deficiency/offense. In this case of a Soldier with an approved retirement, the IG can clarify the regulation and tell the commander what responsibilities and what options the Cdr has.
Save yourself time and headache and engage your IG and make a sound decision using good judgment.
PO1 Rick Serviss
I used to speak with the Enlisted Retirement Section at Navy Headquarters and was told that once a sailor is approved for retirement, it’s damn near impossible to reverse. A lot of planning goes into it like programming a relief, etc.
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PO1 (Join to see)
SGT Drew Clifton - Glad to know that barracks lawyers are still gainfully employed across the services. /sarcasm
My first job in the Navy was a payroll clerk on an aircraft carrier. The amount of people that "knew" more than I did about pay and entitlements was astounding. Then I would point them to look up what they thought they knew in the DODFMR, and suddenly, I would get deer in the headlight looks back. "What's that?" they would ask. "Oh, it's just the rules and regs for that which you claim to have extensive knowledge about. Funny how you don't know what it's there for."
My first job in the Navy was a payroll clerk on an aircraft carrier. The amount of people that "knew" more than I did about pay and entitlements was astounding. Then I would point them to look up what they thought they knew in the DODFMR, and suddenly, I would get deer in the headlight looks back. "What's that?" they would ask. "Oh, it's just the rules and regs for that which you claim to have extensive knowledge about. Funny how you don't know what it's there for."
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PO1 Rick Serviss
PO1 (Join to see) - Were you a DK or PS? I retired in 2000 as a PN1. Spent a lot of time on ships, mostly small boys.
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CPT (Join to see)
The IG does NOTHING. All the IG can do is "suggest." Been there. Done that. Did not help. Commanders dont have to take advice from IG or EEOC at any level. When I went to my IG at Benning (sgt King) he told me "it is not an IG issue." Well sorry if I though that giving a order physically impossible to follow was an IG issue. But that is when I learned the truth that they can do anything that they want, and then it is up to you to try and make things right. The only people that are in your corner are your peers and the commander dont have to listen to them either. That is fact. Lrarned that the hard way.
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Unless the soldier committed some egregious act, why f with them? They did 18, let them ride. Sounds like spite to me.
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I noticed in one of your comments SM is under 180 days. I am reading between the lines here, but it appears what you are trying to do is to somehow screw this guy out of his pension. I hope I'm wrong.
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Maj (Join to see)
CSM, I think its more of a soldier is pushing some buttons and someone wanting to jerk a chain, but doesn't know how - that's why I stated an ego check is needed. I don't believe that the major is looking to screw a guy out of his pension. I mean if that is the case that is some serious bad juju you are wishing on yourself
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Why would you want to? Spite? What positive purpose would this serve for the Army? Moral in the US military is at an all time low and you want to show the junior troops that even if they go the distance, an officer can yank the carrot away at the last minute?
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It is very hard. The reason would have to carry CM type weight. Anyone with 17 plus years deserves the benefit of the doubt. If you could not CM then why try to take away their livelihood. If it is then go after it.
Weigh the offense against the cost-grade times the retirement scale, times 35 plus years. Is that what he did wrong???
Weigh the offense against the cost-grade times the retirement scale, times 35 plus years. Is that what he did wrong???
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There's a special place in hell for those whose jollies are tickled by messing with retired service people... If it is for cause and legit, so be it, if it is for any other reason then reread my first phrase.
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What is the point of the Chapter action? Is the Soldier a major threat to or a disruption of the unit? Are you seeking " pay back" to a " short timer attitude "? Without the full picture, I say leave the Soldier alone and let them retire.
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Unless it is some Felony criminal charge just leave the guy alone. If you don't want to deal with him, let him check in and go to appointments and get his affairs in order.
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LCDR (Join to see)
Exactly. I'm not expecting anything from anyone in their last 180 days. Sure, we had an ADC who ran a work detail to accept an aircraft back from PMI just before he punched out on terminal - but that's the type of guy he was. Anyone else... unless it's sexual assault or harming a minor, let them leave in peace. If it's really that bad, the civilian authorities will deal with it.
If it IS the two I mentioned, then all bets are off.
If it IS the two I mentioned, then all bets are off.
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