Posted on Jul 4, 2015
How important is the "10-minute" prior to formation?
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If the leader has information to put out prior to the formation, then shouldn't the leader just make this the exact formation time versus saying "I expect Soldiers to be present 10 minutes prior to help you from being late and in case I have information to put out". I hear a lot about treating Soldiers like adults, but I think we should just tell them exact time we want them there and if they fail to meet that time, then hold them accountable. I personally will never counsel or berate a Soldier for not being there 10 minutes prior, but if they're late, then it's on.
Accountability
Leadership
Standards
Formation
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 21
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It's a balance.
Don't waste people's time vs "getting your ducks in a row."
If the "real" formation is at 0700, and the subordinate leader says 10 prior so he can get his headcount, rather than saying "1stSgt, I don't know where my folks are. I need a minute," that is completely reasonable.
However when you end up with the domino effect of 10 minutes prior to the 10 minutes prior, etc.. that is bad.
For a BN commander who says 0700, and then Company says 10 prior, and then Platoon says 10, then squad 10 prior... that's 30 mins. That time should be used "appropriately" and not just have folks milling around. Pass other types of word, etc.
Now, whatever the time you told them is the time they are supposed to be there. So if you say formation is 0700. That means 0700. It doesn't mean 0650. If you say formation is at 0700, but I want you there 10 prior, that means 0650. Orders should not be ambiguous, lest you will end up with undesired results.
Don't waste people's time vs "getting your ducks in a row."
If the "real" formation is at 0700, and the subordinate leader says 10 prior so he can get his headcount, rather than saying "1stSgt, I don't know where my folks are. I need a minute," that is completely reasonable.
However when you end up with the domino effect of 10 minutes prior to the 10 minutes prior, etc.. that is bad.
For a BN commander who says 0700, and then Company says 10 prior, and then Platoon says 10, then squad 10 prior... that's 30 mins. That time should be used "appropriately" and not just have folks milling around. Pass other types of word, etc.
Now, whatever the time you told them is the time they are supposed to be there. So if you say formation is 0700. That means 0700. It doesn't mean 0650. If you say formation is at 0700, but I want you there 10 prior, that means 0650. Orders should not be ambiguous, lest you will end up with undesired results.
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MSG (Join to see)
you need to have accountability of your sm's if formation is 0700 then your people need to be there at 0650, it is is standard through out the military, period, going on patrol need 3 vics in 3 vehicles, ones not there, patrol is delayed, in those ten minutes you can substituted and make the mission this is not civi world its mil world, get over it
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
MSG (Join to see) - And that is not contradictory to what I said. What I said is "Don't let it spiral out of control" to the point where we are wasting people's time, which is often the case. Think back to when you were a young troop and the ACTUAL formation was at 0700 and you were directed to be out there at 0600 because of the number of echelons between you and the person calling the formation.
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MSG (Join to see)
i agree but you do what is needed if your command says 0700, your company says 0650 and your plt says 0640 you do it period they have their reasons, too f'n bad, just do it your in the mil, and its not a social club, just do it, leadership is the abillity to send otherwise normal people into a sitaution that requires them to do things that no normal person would do
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
MSG (Join to see) - That's a different discussion, though. It's not a matter of whether we do it. It's a question of how important it is.
There's a lot of things we do that a idiotic, and showing up 30 minutes early for a meeting that is going to take 15 minutes is one of them. Time is the one of the few resources you cannot get back, and if you or anyone wastes mine, I'm going to call you out on it.
If you saw your Team Leaders wasting your Troops time by having them mill about well before muster, what would your response be? Would it be "good, they're here early!" or "Don't they have better things to do than stand around lollygagging on the parade-deck?"
There's a lot of things we do that a idiotic, and showing up 30 minutes early for a meeting that is going to take 15 minutes is one of them. Time is the one of the few resources you cannot get back, and if you or anyone wastes mine, I'm going to call you out on it.
If you saw your Team Leaders wasting your Troops time by having them mill about well before muster, what would your response be? Would it be "good, they're here early!" or "Don't they have better things to do than stand around lollygagging on the parade-deck?"
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It comes down to standards and discipline.
If the leadership (say at the Platoon or squad level) tells you to be there 10 minutes prior to the 0630 formation, do the math and be there at 0620. The training schedule is the legal document signed by the commander and many subordinate level leaders ask their Soldiers to be there 10 minutes prior to do an accountability and an inspection - sounds reasonable to me. 0630 is when the 1SG is saying fall-in, receive the report, report......we recently had a Soldier miss a formation, the 1SG directed the PLT leadership to go and find the Soldier (before the formation), he was in his room in a pool of blood. He had slipped and hit his head on his sink, and was bleeding - the unit had already checked his room and knew he was awake...they are a very disciplined unit and took care of that Soldier by checking on him and knowing there was something wrong because he was not there at 0620. The training schedule indicates what you are doing at 0630, for us it does not say you put out notes at 0630, it indicates PRT or Dismounted Patrol etc...
If the leadership (say at the Platoon or squad level) tells you to be there 10 minutes prior to the 0630 formation, do the math and be there at 0620. The training schedule is the legal document signed by the commander and many subordinate level leaders ask their Soldiers to be there 10 minutes prior to do an accountability and an inspection - sounds reasonable to me. 0630 is when the 1SG is saying fall-in, receive the report, report......we recently had a Soldier miss a formation, the 1SG directed the PLT leadership to go and find the Soldier (before the formation), he was in his room in a pool of blood. He had slipped and hit his head on his sink, and was bleeding - the unit had already checked his room and knew he was awake...they are a very disciplined unit and took care of that Soldier by checking on him and knowing there was something wrong because he was not there at 0620. The training schedule indicates what you are doing at 0630, for us it does not say you put out notes at 0630, it indicates PRT or Dismounted Patrol etc...
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Anytime we have a BN formation this happens. 10 minutes prior to the 10 minutes prior and etc. often times Soldiers getting there 30-45 minutes early. Which is ridiculous. Being a squad leader and having 7 soldiers and 2 team leaders under me I treat them like adults. My teams leaders always report to either through text message or in person that everyone from our squad is there. I can't say every Soldier but my soldiers always let their team leader if they know they are going to be late. I have a very tight knit group and because I treat them like adults, they act like adults.
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SFC William Swartz Jr
Have to agree big time with you SGT (Join to see) I detested the 10 minutes prior to the 10 minutes prior, I understood it, but still detested it lol....end up getting up probably an hour earlier than needed to make sure I was on time for someone's subordinate formation......
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MSG (Join to see) great post. It makes all the difference when you transition out the military and get a civilian job. If you don't show up on time your in jeopardy and could get fired. It helps me to maintain my discipline and keep that PAY CHECK coming. 10 minutes prior is the standard in my life in everything I do. Its one of the many habits I will forevermore keep.
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There's actually a mathematical reason for the 10-minute rule. The probability of having a formation that is dress-right-dress is [average odds of an individual Soldier being squared away and on time] raised to the power of [number of Soldiers in formation.]
So let's say we have a 120-strong company formation. And let's say the average odds of each Soldier to make it to formation on time, in the right place, with the right uniform, is 0.99. He only messes up one formation out of 100. That's pretty good right?
The overall probability of the formation to be perfect, is 0.99^120, which is just a shade under 30%. Isn't that crazy? 70% of the time the formation will be jacked up in some way shape or form. This is why you almost always see "THE ONE". This is also why the 10-minute rule is compounded for larger formations -- to counteract a larger exponent, you have to raise the base percentage. 0.99 just isn't good enough.
So the next time you're out there at 0530 waiting for a 0600 "Fall In", don't blame your leaders, or the Army, or "THE ONE" (too much, a little is okay). Blame probability.
So let's say we have a 120-strong company formation. And let's say the average odds of each Soldier to make it to formation on time, in the right place, with the right uniform, is 0.99. He only messes up one formation out of 100. That's pretty good right?
The overall probability of the formation to be perfect, is 0.99^120, which is just a shade under 30%. Isn't that crazy? 70% of the time the formation will be jacked up in some way shape or form. This is why you almost always see "THE ONE". This is also why the 10-minute rule is compounded for larger formations -- to counteract a larger exponent, you have to raise the base percentage. 0.99 just isn't good enough.
So the next time you're out there at 0530 waiting for a 0600 "Fall In", don't blame your leaders, or the Army, or "THE ONE" (too much, a little is okay). Blame probability.
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I trust subordinates to manage their time, however the pre-meeting is a typical indicator of a prepared leader.
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Sgt Ken Prescott
The problem is, it quickly turns into a pre-pre-meeting, and a pre-pre-pre-meeting...
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LTC John Shaw
Sgt Ken Prescott Agreed, that is why I don't require it. I measure people on results, mentorship, ability to develop others. Not ability to have their team show up 10 minutes early to a formation.
I do judge leadership and those individuals who are actually late, if ANY of their people are late.
I do judge leadership and those individuals who are actually late, if ANY of their people are late.
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If muster is 1700 then you should not be expected to be there till 1700!! Although i will agree you should be, but not for "pre muster" info.
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We have 15 minutes prior in my unit. It's a bit absurd to be honest. 0630 pt becomes 0615. 0900 work call is now 0845. We get done with pt at 0800. 45 minutes for a commute, breakfast, shower, and commute back is pushing it. Also God forbid you show up at 0620... That's basically like being FTR. What happened to missing the command of fall in asserting that you were FTR? I can attest to this as I recently had a SFC tell me that I was late because I was early but not early enough... No information was being put out of anything. Didn't miss anything.. So he starts asking me "what am I going to do with you?" And on and on. It's hard to keep military bearing when youre being told you're late as you show up 10 minutes early. how can anyone stand behind something so idiotic?
I'm in agreeance with setting 10 - 15 minutes prior for a formation if there's something beyond the norm going on. Other than that I'd say 5 minutes prior is plenty of time for team leaders and squad leaders to get their count and relay that information to the platoon sergeant. Anything more is putting everyone on a kindergarten level. As we all know, if you treat someone like a kid long enough, they'll start acting the part.
I'm in agreeance with setting 10 - 15 minutes prior for a formation if there's something beyond the norm going on. Other than that I'd say 5 minutes prior is plenty of time for team leaders and squad leaders to get their count and relay that information to the platoon sergeant. Anything more is putting everyone on a kindergarten level. As we all know, if you treat someone like a kid long enough, they'll start acting the part.
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Good Gawd, I hated the "10 minutes prior," because every damn layer of the chain of command added their own ten minutes. When the Commandant came through MCAS Beaufort, that resulted in a 0700 formation with a 0550 be-there NLT.
In HMH-466, we had a simple policy: be there on time, or expect that you're getting volunteered to Group for whatever SLJs they might have.
In HMH-466, we had a simple policy: be there on time, or expect that you're getting volunteered to Group for whatever SLJs they might have.
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Time management. Micromanagement.
What does receive the report mean? Turn around PLT SGT and ask your squad leaders who is there then turn back around and tell me.
For some reason, we can't seem to do this anymore. So what if it takes 5 minutes to do and then we do PT until 0735?
The 10 minutes to the 10 minutes prior stuff got old real quick. What is the problem with putting out the notes and stuff at 0900 work call? In the day of email and texting, we shouldn't be wasting people's time.
When we forget that we have Summary Art 15s and administrative reductions as tools for the younger Soldiers to get their act straight, we find ourselves as leaders doing more to prevent these issues by putting out blanket directives.
What does receive the report mean? Turn around PLT SGT and ask your squad leaders who is there then turn back around and tell me.
For some reason, we can't seem to do this anymore. So what if it takes 5 minutes to do and then we do PT until 0735?
The 10 minutes to the 10 minutes prior stuff got old real quick. What is the problem with putting out the notes and stuff at 0900 work call? In the day of email and texting, we shouldn't be wasting people's time.
When we forget that we have Summary Art 15s and administrative reductions as tools for the younger Soldiers to get their act straight, we find ourselves as leaders doing more to prevent these issues by putting out blanket directives.
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