How many times do you give a National Guard Soldier a chance to pass the APFT, Two and out? On the other hand, do we just care about numbers?

Based on my experiences in the Reserves, if the soldier is an otherwise good performer, and is making an effort to improve and showing progress each month, then the leadership usually recommends not pushing the paperwork through. But there is a limit...

I've only seen one soldier pushed out for failing the APFT in my seven years in, that was about a year ago and he hadn't passed an APFT for the 4 years I'd known him. Recently however things have begun to change. I don't know if it's an AR or just my state or brigade, but if a soldier fails a record APFT he gets counseled by the CO and has 180 days before they can make him take another record. He can choose to do one sooner and the CO can make him take a diagnostic whenever he wants, but upon failing the 2nd APFT in a row that soldier is getting pushed out or at the very least reduced. Just the other day we had a SFC perennial PT failer get chartered out. The times they are a changing.

First, I'm a 20+ year Army vet. I'm just an E5 by choice. I have been on and off the overweight program more times then I can count. I travel with my civilian job Mon thru Fri where I'm a mechanic. I spend most of my time working as many hours as possible to ensure I get home early on Friday. Finding places to eat healthy as well as finding time to work out mixed in with a fitness center at the hotels that have working equipment can be damn near impossible most of the time. I do pass my pt test although I have had my share of tests that were pencil whipped. This is due to my extreme proficiency as a mechanic. In other words I'm usually the best mechanic in every unit I have been in.
That being said. If you have a scrub of a soldier I.E. always late, doesn't do their MOS or even tries to learn it, has an attitude towards those over them, always needs to shave, ect, and ect. Mixed in with failing their PT test.Then f--k it. By all means, put them out.
If you have a soldier/ NCO like myself. You can't tell me that it's more then worth it to keep them around. Shit, my last commander who really liked me wanted to put me out because I am "unhealthy" ( in other words I am fat). Only to be told by a Lt Col and a Full Bird "are you sure you wanna put out your best mechanic". I mean sometimes you need common sense to make your decision.
I'm not in a combat arms MOS and yes I've been deployed where I drove the wrecker on at least 25 different convoy missions where we took fire and I performed recoveries under fire. All while being flagged for being over weight. In a combat arms MOS yes this can and more then likely will pose an issue. So.....Someone should take this soldier under their wing and help them during the month. If the soldier is making progress every month then the paper work can easily be held up or go missing until he/ she is passing. Also, a passing diagnostic PT test can be a passing PT test with an eraser.
This statement is All about retaining a soldier who shows more soldierly traits then just a weight or PT issue.

I think two and out is a bit much; the Soldier needs to be counseled first, and have a battle plan put in place with their Squad leader/platoon leader. They then need an oppurtunity to fix whatever deficiencies they have. Two months, in my view, is not enough time to make those changes.

Senior leaders, however, I have less empathy for. How many times has a "Joe" been counseled about their PT from a fat body, laminated profile carrying shot bag NCO? As leaders you should be expected to set the example, so they have had more time to find ways to incorporate full time PT into their lives that younger Joe's haven't figure out yet.

Well... there is the book answer and there is the world according to Jerry.
The book gives the commander the option to discharge a Soldier if they fail two consecutive APFTs. Now the USAR makes that difficult, but let's forget about that for a moment.
At the end of the day, I think what matters is whether your team is better with that Soldier or without them, and I think that boils down to what that Soldier brings to the table. This does not excuse their failure to meet Army standards and if the leaders are worth a damn, they will exhaust every possible means to train that Soldier and give them the tools to succeed.
At the end of the day though, the APFT is about that Soldier's personal commitment to being a professional. If they up and quit on me and don't show improvement, I have no qualms with the commander forwarding discharge paperwork.

After two record tests chapter paperwork needs to be initiated, however I would expect that several diagnostic APFT would be given while working with the soldier to assess their progress. That said, every situation is going to be a little different... our objective should always be to take care of our soldiers and exceed the standard.

I struggled with the same question when I got to my current unit, especially after having spent so much time on active in the training section. I had a Soldier on my team who failed our company APFT, and I had pulled him aside and explained to him the reg. When talking with my squad leader about said reg and the way ahead (i.e. flagged until passing APFT, 90 days, ect), I was given a confused stare as I spouted out the information, told to standby, and 20 minutes later was told 'That might be reg, but that's not how we're doing it'. I understand that I am a little cog on a big wheel so that I don't have the big picture, but in an infantry company it was my vague idea that you kind of would like to have most of your people if not all able to pass APFTs and hold their own physically. I've also been told by people with much more experience in the Guard that it's all about how many people you report you have, regardless of if they haven't passed an APFT since TRADOC or you have 50% AWOL, as there's little other way to get that sweet sweet funding.

In my experience, both USAR and a former commander in the NG, manpower (bodies) takes precedence over regulations. It isn't right, but since the ability to train takes dollars, and the more bodies you have, the more training dollars the state receives, you end up having folks who are overweight and/or out of shape. Its a fact of Guard/Reserve life. You either deal with it or move on to something else.

The only time this is an issue is OCS, NCOES, and other career courses.

In the ANG, the instruction changed in 2010ish, once you fail the 1st test - you are given counseling, sent to medical for eval and counseling on health, diet, etc. You test again at 6 month mark - if you fail again - you are given written counseling and/or reduction in rank - on the 4th failure you are processed for administrative separation. This is if the person does not have military issues. If you are on profile, the rules are different for how long you can stay on profile now. Depending on your job, rank and years of service - we still have the 18 year point where you are golden to stay to the 20 years (again depending on your job). I was a paralegal (not in line to deploy unless I would beg to go at my skill level and rank, so I was just doing office work during UTAs (plus walking up 3 flights of stairs to our office), with back issues that started in 2009, when we were exercising for an inspection - ended up with lower back surgery in 2012 and then upper back surgery in 2015 - retired in 2016 due to health. Pushed myself to pass one last PT test in 2013 to get promotion to SMSgt (had my doctor yelling at me - to stop running it was doing major damage to my back, but I knew I wouldn't get the promotion if I didn't pass the PT test). Will I get more retirement pay - yes, but I don't know if it was worth the cost to my back - I am in daily pain even with the 2 surgeries, have limited range of motion and other side effects that will last a life time and get worse over time.

Put a plan in place to help the soldier pass the APFT. If weight is the problem then a weight control plan is required. If the soldier does not make satisfactory progress in either APFT or weight control then a medical evaluation is indicated. if in the medical professional's opinion there is no reason that the soldier is not making progress then counseling and punitive actions become an option.