Posted on Jun 30, 2016
SGT Soldier
33K
278
133
26
26
0
74c611b1
With the lifting of the ban on transgender service members openly serving, I have a serious question about the APFT standards as well as the Ht/Wt standards.

If a biological male SM declares himself to be a transgender (aka identifies as female) does that SM get to take the APFT based on the female standards for his(her) age?
And do the female standards for body fat percentage apply as well?

Has anyone really thought about the impact of this? How does this work? As an NCO, how do I score an APFT for this individual? Do I need a female NCO to tape this SM? How does SHARP adjust?
Posted in these groups: Bilde AR 600-9P542 APFT9ed82c1 Transgender
Avatar feed
Responses: 56
SSG Daniel Deiler
26
26
0
I don't care what they identify as. If they are a male they will be scored as such as they possess the hormones and physical characteristics of a male and vice versa for females. Since when is ANY Soldier evaluated based upon how they "feel?!?"
(26)
Comment
(0)
SSG Daniel Deiler
SSG Daniel Deiler
>1 y
I appreciate your response SGT Laura Delgadillo however my opinion is not uninformed or hateful. It just is likely misunderstood as I could have elaborated further. If a Soldier "feels" that they are not what they are physically, then they should still be evaluated as their biological gender. This should be the case until such a time they begin the hormonal treatment. At that point they should be placed on a temporary profile during the term of the hormone treatment. And just as any other Soldier on profile, their doctor can and should exempt them from taking the APFT. However, until that therapy starts, they still possess the same hormonal levels as their biological gender and must be held to those standards.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SGT Laura Delgadillo
SGT Laura Delgadillo
>1 y
SSG Daniel Deiler - ok that makes more sense. I misinterpreted your original response. But basically your answer is similar to the one I gave. I agree with DoDI 1300.28 that service members will continue to serve under the standards of their gender on their ERB until a medical provider has made the determination that their gender needs to be updated at which point they will follow all the standards of that gender.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SGT Laura Delgadillo
SGT Laura Delgadillo
>1 y
SSG Daniel Deiler - btw I removed the downvote
(1)
Reply
(0)
SSG Daniel Deiler
SSG Daniel Deiler
>1 y
SGT Laura Delgadillo - Thank you for the reference. The only thing I've seen to this point was the memorandum that was disseminated last week after the announcement was made to allow transgendered Soldiers to openly serve. Up til this point it seemed that there was a lot open to interpretation and that the policy was rolled out before policies and regulations were in place to give leaders more guidance than just figuring it out as they went along.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGT Laura Delgadillo
21
21
0
Hi, transgender service member here, and to answer your question service members will take APFT according to the gender on their ERB. Service members who are transitioning will not be able to update their gender on their ERB until approved by a PCM who has stated that the service member has competed the required steps to transition such as hormone replacement therapy.

Any other questions?
(21)
Comment
(0)
SSG Instructor
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
SSG D Witmer...Seriously dude? The SPC came on here to provide some guidance to fellow Soldiers, NCOs and Officers on a policy while keeping (from what I could see) personal opinion on the matter out of the mix. Even if this WERE a debate on the merits (for or against) transgender troops serving in our Army, who in the hell are you to hope that anyone wearing our uniform and serving our country in battle would die? Why would you wish that on a parent, sibling, spouse, etc?

Regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, try to keep your vile and vitriol to yourself when addressing another Soldier. Especially towards someone that is taking time out of their day to better educate the uninformed on policy and attempt to help the Army weather a possibly confusing storm. Otherwise, I recommend that you squat, hold, wait for the loud pop and once your head has been removed from your 4th point of contact you can feel free to re-engage the adults in meaningful conversation.
(7)
Reply
(0)
SGM Gregory Hoppe
SGM Gregory Hoppe
>1 y
SSG (Join to see) - Same for me.
(0)
Reply
(0)
CMSgt Senior Enlisted Leader
CMSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
SSG (Join to see) -
If you click on it again, it should remove it. Thank you for clarifying.
(0)
Reply
(0)
CMSgt Senior Enlisted Leader
CMSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
I down-voted SSG Witmer for his reprehensible comment.

Feel that way all you want in the confines of your own mind or home, but to share it on this site, where we support each other as brothers- and sister-in-arms, is inexcusable.

SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4"
(2)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG Civil Affairs Specialist
11
11
0
I think that it shall not be long before guidance is published on the subject but pending that, my assumption will be to utilize current regulations which state that the gender the SM is born with is how they will be recorded on all administrative matters.
Not to worry though, this will be a pretty rare occurance, and when it does come up, I am sure the entire CoC will weigh in on what their guidance will be.
(11)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Avatar feed
How will the military handle transgendered and APFT/AR 600-9?
SGT Gregory Reilly
7
7
0
Thank You SPC Delgadillo for your response, and for what it's worth best of luck with your career. It's simple look and the ID and drivers liscense read the section sex, male or female and test accordingly. The big thing to remember is it's 2016 and shit changes. At one point in the military the saying was suck it up and move on. Remember when they started issuing basic training recruits time out cards same thing. Grow up or find something else to do. We don't make orders we follow them. Man, woman what counts is the quality of the soldier. Give a transgender a break. If you knew what they've all already gone through on a mental aspect you might have a heart. It's something most of us will never understand. Give them an order. If they comply pat them on the back. If not bust them like any other soldier. They're fellow soldiers. Treat them as such.
(7)
Comment
(0)
CSM Battalion Command Sergeant Major
CSM (Join to see)
>1 y
I have heard about the "time out" cards for years and never saw one or heard from one credible source that they actually existed. Urban legend.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Opsnco
7
7
0
We were discussing this as an office the other day. The general consensus was...
Male identifies as a female when entering the military:
1) For records purposes a transgender male will be addressed as a female, be subject to female grooming standards, allowed to use female latrine, etc.
2) Use the female scoring standards for APFT: Theoretically this should be easy for the transgender male because regardless of hormone therapy their bone/body structure is still male and the male center of gravity is higher than in females. This is why females have less difficulty with the sit-up event (their hips give then a lower center of gravity) and why males have an easier time with he push-up event.
3) Use the female scoring standards for HT/WT. This is where the major issues come into play. Females have higher body fat % allowance but their measurements are not designed for the male physique. Additionally, the transgender male will have to weigh less as the female weight standard allows considerably less weight than the male standard. The weight will be difficult to meet for some transgender males.

Female identifies as a male when entering the military:
1) For records purposes a transgender female will be addressed as a male, be subject to male grooming standards, allowed to use male latrine, etc.
2) Use the male scoring standards for APFT: Theoretically this should be hard for the transgender female because regardless of hormone therapy their structure is still female. Remember the explanation in #2 above.
3) Use the male scoring standards for HT/WT. Again, this is where the major issues come into play. Males have lower body fat % allowance but their measurements are not designed for the female physique. Additionally, the transgender female will have to weigh more as the male weight standard allows considerably more weight than the female standard. The weight will be difficult to meet for some transgender females as there is a minimum weight for both males and females in military service.

In reality, for the reasons mentioned above, and reasons yet to be known, it will be years of trail and error on military leadership to come up with new/additional standards for transgender individuals.
(7)
Comment
(0)
SSG Roger Ayscue
SSG Roger Ayscue
>1 y
We were discussing this at the Office the other day (Vets and Retirees) and the general consensus is that the POTUS and the SecDef are total Fucktards, and the US Military is screwed.
Ash Carter does not know if he is Shot, Fucked, Powder Burned or Snakebit.
(7)
Reply
(0)
SPC S1 Personnel Nco
SPC (Join to see)
>1 y
WOW THAT'S PRETTY MESSY UP
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MSG Lance Kelly
7
7
0
Wow! You just gave me a lot to think about. I work in JAG and can guarantee you that these questions will come to me real soon. As much as I would like to know the answers I am most likely going to be doing the research myself. Thanks for bringing up the topic. I also like SFC Zach's idea of a pass/fail system. The whole point system I think is really only valued if you are seeking promotion points or maybe an evaluation bullet.
(7)
Comment
(0)
SGT Soldier
SGT (Join to see)
>1 y
MSG,
Please also note my comment above about UPLs and SHARP.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
2LT Ronald Reimer
6
6
0
HaHaHaHa......Sorry. I am SO glad that I am out. (Out of the service, not out of the closet. Not in the closet, either. Not that that matters~Jerry Seinfeld).
(6)
Comment
(0)
MAJ Rene De La Rosa
MAJ Rene De La Rosa
>1 y
Always a jokester in the bunch.......loving it! Some of these topics are hard to talk about, and a good sense of humor is needed (along with a strong alcoholic beverage of choice).
(2)
Reply
(0)
SSG Roger Ayscue
SSG Roger Ayscue
>1 y
It DOES Freaking matter and you know it.....I dont know whether to laugh or weep for the mess that Obama is making of the US Military...I think he is preping us to be defeated by ISIS...ISIS is after all, know for being so supportive and understanding of those that are different in mind than tey are in body....GOD HELP US ALL.
(8)
Reply
(0)
SGT (Other / Not listed)
SGT (Join to see)
>1 y
Good for you.
(0)
Reply
(0)
SFC Phillip Wiley
SFC Phillip Wiley
>1 y
Ditto your comment 2LT, I am glad I retired when I did.
(2)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MSG Intermediate Care Technician
4
4
0
I will grade all males on male standards until such time as legal documents are presented that they are now legally declared females. Same with females transitioning to male. And, an MFR from their provider stating that they have completed the required medical steps to change their gender. Then, once those documents are presented to me, then they will be afforded all the rights and privileges therein and held to those gender standards.
(4)
Comment
(0)
SFC J Fullerton
SFC J Fullerton
>1 y
To what extent are the required medical steps to "officially" or "legally" change their gender? Will that mean removal of (or addition of) the genital organ? Not sure how this all works. What exactly is "transitioning", and is that not complete until they no longer have the plumbing they had at birth? Now, I have no idea if true or not, but suspect there are those who identify as females or male, take all the steps of transitioning (breast implants/removal, hormones, etc) but, decide not to, or have no intentions to, follow through with the reassignment surgery. Will they not be able to "legally" declared the sex they identify with? Just curious. (not that kind of curious).
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SGT David T.
4
4
0
As always, the services will have to figure out how to make it work. The services always adapt to the changing situation and this will be no different.
(4)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
PO3 Arthur Dunham
3
3
0
Those that oppose transgender's in the service should be very ashamed yourselves. I worked with combat female women that could outrun and outdo most of you that are posting on here. You really should be ashamed of the post you have made. I bet some of you pissed your pants in basic and cried every night because you were away from your mommy.
(3)
Comment
(0)
SSG Instructor
SSG (Join to see)
>1 y
Well...all the cool kids were doing it....
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

close