Posted on Oct 16, 2016
How would you react to an E2 who "smart mouths" you in formation?
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 3697
Okay, as a Navy LT from way back, I would very quietly, with direct motion come eye to eye with the said E2, calmly ask “what part of said lawful order did they not understand. Then , just as calmly turn to my Chief/Sr. Chief and in front of the unit “ask” the CPO to make the said E2 understand. Directly afterwards, the Senior and I would have a very clear discussion. Said E2 would be forever assigned to the 1st LT division and be hanging over the side in a bosun chair with a scrapper and paint brush.
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Suspended Profile
Challenge to authority can be tricky. You cannot allow this to stand as it is not conducive to good order and discipline for the organization.
You are here asking, so I wonder how you managed the situation? Have you looked in the mirror and asked how your team got here?
You are here asking, so I wonder how you managed the situation? Have you looked in the mirror and asked how your team got here?
My opinion is informed by a mix of being trained infantry, old guard, a strict family, but tempered by my experience and good leaders. Translation: I'm giving you context and asking you to give credit to them for the good and blame me for the bad.
I dealt with this situation a few times, and my response was different, depending on the soldier. I advise calling him on it publicly insofar as making clear that such behavior will not fly, but wait till private to handle it further. (Tell the soldier and their team lead to stand fast when you release the rest.) Example: Well, gentlemen, we have a contestant for the Darwin Award! Somebody wants Daddy's attention! Alright, Private, you've got it! Fall out! Private _____, Specialist _______, stand fast!"
Then something along the lines of: "Now that you have my attention, would you like to say your piece before I say mine? Any defense? Any rationale to that little stunt?" (This isn't saying I think he is justified...it's a mix of good leadership letting him express it and think about how he screwed up, and also giving him the rope to hang himself)
When he is finished with his BS, assuming it is (never did have any good justification given for that kind of insubordination), my response might be:
"Specialist, I tend to think that such behavior is either a direct response to leadership or a lack of enough leadership...is this your work, or can you explain to me how he got so fucked as to think he had a bloody choice on lawful orders? No? Okay. I am going to give you 1 chance to handle this issue at your level before I step in. Private, I hope you'll consider your life decisions and the consequences thereof. My job is to make widows and orphans, to train others to do the same, and to make sure they do so as efficiently, lethally, and correctly, as possible. Don't make the mistake of turning me into your enemy when I can be your biggest asset. Specialist, he's yours this once."
(I prefer to handle things at the lowest level possible. After that, I write him up and he gets a LOT of corrective training...and I am a proponent of combatives PT at the woodline or otherwise for handling some things. Just dot your i's, cross your t's, and make sure your response is guided by the overall goal of improvement, NOT the [justified] rage at this little stain on the earth refusing to execute his purpose for existence.)
Key: Be smart, not just angry.
I dealt with this situation a few times, and my response was different, depending on the soldier. I advise calling him on it publicly insofar as making clear that such behavior will not fly, but wait till private to handle it further. (Tell the soldier and their team lead to stand fast when you release the rest.) Example: Well, gentlemen, we have a contestant for the Darwin Award! Somebody wants Daddy's attention! Alright, Private, you've got it! Fall out! Private _____, Specialist _______, stand fast!"
Then something along the lines of: "Now that you have my attention, would you like to say your piece before I say mine? Any defense? Any rationale to that little stunt?" (This isn't saying I think he is justified...it's a mix of good leadership letting him express it and think about how he screwed up, and also giving him the rope to hang himself)
When he is finished with his BS, assuming it is (never did have any good justification given for that kind of insubordination), my response might be:
"Specialist, I tend to think that such behavior is either a direct response to leadership or a lack of enough leadership...is this your work, or can you explain to me how he got so fucked as to think he had a bloody choice on lawful orders? No? Okay. I am going to give you 1 chance to handle this issue at your level before I step in. Private, I hope you'll consider your life decisions and the consequences thereof. My job is to make widows and orphans, to train others to do the same, and to make sure they do so as efficiently, lethally, and correctly, as possible. Don't make the mistake of turning me into your enemy when I can be your biggest asset. Specialist, he's yours this once."
(I prefer to handle things at the lowest level possible. After that, I write him up and he gets a LOT of corrective training...and I am a proponent of combatives PT at the woodline or otherwise for handling some things. Just dot your i's, cross your t's, and make sure your response is guided by the overall goal of improvement, NOT the [justified] rage at this little stain on the earth refusing to execute his purpose for existence.)
Key: Be smart, not just angry.
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"shove it and give it to someone else." -refusal & disregard of orders, insubordination and disrespect to an NCO- Grand prize winner...
Too easy...no problem; you use the word "they", I'm I to believe this is a mutiny? If it is the single soldier the UCMJ provides remedies for this in short order.
Blatant refusal & disregard of orders, insubordination and disrespect to an NCO are not taken lightly, specifically in front of a formation. Many in that group are evaluating my next actions. They are watching to see if they can get away with this, I'm I weak, or if I'm going to crush him. Chances are many know this soldier already and think he's a shxtbag. To fail to act would lose the respect of all...his soul must be burned at the stake, for the good of the squad, platoon and company. Also the First Sergeant and CSM would likely counsel me for failure to rip his heart out.
He's not going to be a E-2 very long, he would be removed from formation immediately by me, with his team leader, placed in the pushup position away from the formation. I would excuse the remainder of the troops to go to their work assignments. He, his first line TL and I would go to the Platoon Sergeant at once, then to the First Sergeant.
I would begin my report and request for an article 15, I want his stripe. Pretty easy at that pay grade to snatch that fast. The Platoon Sergeant and the First Sergeant would easily agree with my conclusions. I have dealt with young men like this previously in my career.
If this was a one on one in private, I would handle it completely different. Counseling, progressive discipline, research his family issues ETC.
His heart has to be stomped on at once in this scenario you describe.
BTDT, most recently, last Aug dealt with a similar situation. The soldier is now on the right path and we are friendly.
Too easy...no problem; you use the word "they", I'm I to believe this is a mutiny? If it is the single soldier the UCMJ provides remedies for this in short order.
Blatant refusal & disregard of orders, insubordination and disrespect to an NCO are not taken lightly, specifically in front of a formation. Many in that group are evaluating my next actions. They are watching to see if they can get away with this, I'm I weak, or if I'm going to crush him. Chances are many know this soldier already and think he's a shxtbag. To fail to act would lose the respect of all...his soul must be burned at the stake, for the good of the squad, platoon and company. Also the First Sergeant and CSM would likely counsel me for failure to rip his heart out.
He's not going to be a E-2 very long, he would be removed from formation immediately by me, with his team leader, placed in the pushup position away from the formation. I would excuse the remainder of the troops to go to their work assignments. He, his first line TL and I would go to the Platoon Sergeant at once, then to the First Sergeant.
I would begin my report and request for an article 15, I want his stripe. Pretty easy at that pay grade to snatch that fast. The Platoon Sergeant and the First Sergeant would easily agree with my conclusions. I have dealt with young men like this previously in my career.
If this was a one on one in private, I would handle it completely different. Counseling, progressive discipline, research his family issues ETC.
His heart has to be stomped on at once in this scenario you describe.
BTDT, most recently, last Aug dealt with a similar situation. The soldier is now on the right path and we are friendly.
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….kill them to make an example…oh wait…that was the old NAVY….
….in truth I had this happen twice…where I was the smarta** jr enlisted with a bad temper and I disrespected a Petty Officer/NCO…BOTH times I had some “leadership” laid on me by ANOTHER Petty Officer who had overheard the exchange…I was just to stupid for the first lesson in “leadership” to take effect…the SECOND time my “instructor” was a HUGE 2nd Class Boiler Technician…he hit me so hard I hit the bulkhead behind me, slumped to the deck and pissed my pants…that lesson took…this was 1975, Vietnam era….
The truth is that military service, due to the weapons, equipment, vehicles and environments we operate in, is an inherently dangerous profession. And, in war, a unbiased and brutal profession as well. Orders need to be followed, immediately, without question because people can get seriously injured, or dead, in a remarkably short amount of time, if those orders are NOT followed. Consequently, for some individuals, punishment for disobeying orders, or a higher up, sometimes needs to be somewhat brutal…it is far better to learn the consequences of your actions/inaction by getting an a** whuppin”…then by getting yourself, someone else, or a bunch of someone elses, seriously injured or killed on a battlefield or a flight deck….
….in truth I had this happen twice…where I was the smarta** jr enlisted with a bad temper and I disrespected a Petty Officer/NCO…BOTH times I had some “leadership” laid on me by ANOTHER Petty Officer who had overheard the exchange…I was just to stupid for the first lesson in “leadership” to take effect…the SECOND time my “instructor” was a HUGE 2nd Class Boiler Technician…he hit me so hard I hit the bulkhead behind me, slumped to the deck and pissed my pants…that lesson took…this was 1975, Vietnam era….
The truth is that military service, due to the weapons, equipment, vehicles and environments we operate in, is an inherently dangerous profession. And, in war, a unbiased and brutal profession as well. Orders need to be followed, immediately, without question because people can get seriously injured, or dead, in a remarkably short amount of time, if those orders are NOT followed. Consequently, for some individuals, punishment for disobeying orders, or a higher up, sometimes needs to be somewhat brutal…it is far better to learn the consequences of your actions/inaction by getting an a** whuppin”…then by getting yourself, someone else, or a bunch of someone elses, seriously injured or killed on a battlefield or a flight deck….
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Like CWO3 John Bell, I would qualify as "old school" (or in our case as Marines, "Old Corps") so the bulkhead counseling could definitely have been an option in my day once all the facts were known.
However, I like GySgt Kenneth Pepper's approach very much, especially in our current day. I faced a similar situation as a company 1stSgt.
The original post doesn't mention occupational specialty, so for the sake of discussion, let's assume (since the post was from a Navy Chief) that this individual is a basic Seaman Apprentice looking to become a Boatswain's Mate. No need to bother the OIC, but the Division Chief definitely needs to get in the loop. So... SA (E2) Pollywog along with BM3 (E5) Bonehead definitely need to find themselves standing tall in front of the Division Chief's desk. Their Leading Petty Officer (usually an E6) should be there too so there are no mistakes. I would give SA Pollywog 1 shot at options. Those options being an Article 15 hearing or "other duties as assigned". If SA Pollywog decides to stupidly smartmouth the Chief, then Article 15. PERIOD! Otherwise, have Pollywog step back and square up BM3 Bonehead in front of the desk and, using carefully chosen words, promise the BM3 that if this situation is not resolved, the BM3 will be looking for another job. Then a single look at the Leading PO followed by 2 words, "You're next". Then tell all three of them you're going to get coffee, grab your cup and head for the hatch. Just before dogging it down, tell the ranking PO to make sure they clean up the office before they leave. Usually, the situation will resolve itself in short order. If not, start the process for showing SA Pollywog the door to civilian life.
At least that's my take.
However, I like GySgt Kenneth Pepper's approach very much, especially in our current day. I faced a similar situation as a company 1stSgt.
The original post doesn't mention occupational specialty, so for the sake of discussion, let's assume (since the post was from a Navy Chief) that this individual is a basic Seaman Apprentice looking to become a Boatswain's Mate. No need to bother the OIC, but the Division Chief definitely needs to get in the loop. So... SA (E2) Pollywog along with BM3 (E5) Bonehead definitely need to find themselves standing tall in front of the Division Chief's desk. Their Leading Petty Officer (usually an E6) should be there too so there are no mistakes. I would give SA Pollywog 1 shot at options. Those options being an Article 15 hearing or "other duties as assigned". If SA Pollywog decides to stupidly smartmouth the Chief, then Article 15. PERIOD! Otherwise, have Pollywog step back and square up BM3 Bonehead in front of the desk and, using carefully chosen words, promise the BM3 that if this situation is not resolved, the BM3 will be looking for another job. Then a single look at the Leading PO followed by 2 words, "You're next". Then tell all three of them you're going to get coffee, grab your cup and head for the hatch. Just before dogging it down, tell the ranking PO to make sure they clean up the office before they leave. Usually, the situation will resolve itself in short order. If not, start the process for showing SA Pollywog the door to civilian life.
At least that's my take.
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Happened to me once. I made a total ass of him in front of his friends. I told him I would Flip him for it, Heads I win, tails he lost; it was tails and he lost. Last time I had any problem with the man.
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Ask them privately what the reason behind their behavior was. People are sometimes in a mental position that all military courtesies go right out the window. I remember I was frustrated one day and very emotional and I went off on the MSG and 1SG in their office, gladly they were nice about it.
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A leader can not let his authority be undermined. I would and did take the soldier and his immediate supervisor aside and asked why he was acting the way he was. If he has a problem that I didn't know about, I would take that into consideration. However, I would tell him that his actions would not be tolerated. I would explain that if he had a problem he and his supervisor should bring it to me to see if there was a way to solve it. If it is just a bad attitude, he would receive a written counseling and be told any further actions would get him an article 15 that would include him losing money and could lead to a dishonorable discharge. I would make sure he understood that his actions would not be tolerated.
I would then send him to complete the task he was assigned. Then I would talk to his supervisor and ask if he was setting the right example by not bad mouthing his leaders in front of the soldiers and impress on him his responsibilities as a leader.
I'll add a little advice. Never counsel a soldier without either his immediate leader/supervisor or your immediate leader in the room. Always have a witness who can back up what was said.
I would then send him to complete the task he was assigned. Then I would talk to his supervisor and ask if he was setting the right example by not bad mouthing his leaders in front of the soldiers and impress on him his responsibilities as a leader.
I'll add a little advice. Never counsel a soldier without either his immediate leader/supervisor or your immediate leader in the room. Always have a witness who can back up what was said.
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late feb. 1966 fort bliss intake center. assigned a bunk, still in civilian clothes, for processing the next morning ( it's 2 am). this little person (say 5'-5") with a blue band around his shiny helmet liner with brass corporal stripes, started screaming at this very large (say 6'-5") freckled, red headed person in bib overalls. we were trying to get some sleep and the large person rolled over to avoid the screaming. the little person went to the other side of the bunk (the large person was on the top bunk) and started screaming. WHAM!, the little person went airborne and hit the wall. the little person appeared to be out cold, slumped against the wall. two nco's picked the little person up and we never saw him again.
so many fun stories, so little time. stay safe out there.
fast howard
so many fun stories, so little time. stay safe out there.
fast howard
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