Posted on Oct 16, 2016
PO1 Officer Candidate
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Here's the background. You're a senior E5. Your troops are in formation and you're handing out work for the day. You hand out an assignment to a fresh E2 with less than a year in and only a few months at your command. They blatantly complain and tell you to choose someone else. You calmly tell them they will do this task and they tell you to shove it and give it to someone else. How do you react?
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
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It must be nipped in the bud quickly and without hesitation. Having had a few minutes to think about it, here goes....
PFC Shitbird and his team leader stand fast. All others fall out and carry on.

Have PFC Dipshit stand by while I ensure his team leader knows what my expectations are; "Instant obedience to lawful orders. Period. Any other answer is unacceptable. The fact that PFC Dipshit thinks it is okay to open his trap is a direct reflection of your leadership. Take a look at how you are leading and determine how this could happen."

To PFC Dipshit; "If you have decided to end your time in the military you have chosen a sure-fire method. If you do not comply with lawful orders, it will eventually end with you on a bus headed for home. But only after spending the next few weeks/months becoming the example of what not to do. If that is what you want, we will go there. If not, get your ass moving on what you were ordered to do."
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Amn Joseph Harty
Amn Joseph Harty
2 mo
Only thing I experienced was attempted abuse of rank, with the only side of the situation showing up in the records was an Article 15, for the victim. But that is the view of an enlisted guy in the 1963 era.
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
1 mo
SGT Tony Shope - The squad did not f*ck up why the hell would you do that.

You do it so the rest of the squad takes the offender under their wing and helps you square his shit away; If he keeps fucking up he will receive a "peer review" in the from of a GI Shower, blanket party, etc.

One dude fucking up and picking up a stray coke can, can kill an entire fucking squad of people, on the road. So, that is why you punish them as a group, so they understand EVERYONE is looking out for everyone.

One guy breaking noise and light discipline can coast an entire platoon their lives.

One dude fucking up radio traffic can cause a stray fire mission to kill blue on blue.

The military is not now, nor has it ever been, an individual evolution.
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
1 mo
PO3 Michael Maples - MY LPO was a ABF aviation boatswain mate fueler. He had done two or three tours in Antarctica, which promotes you in the first increment after you complete the tour. He was a great guy, had been awarded the navy commendation medal for firefighting on a ship. He was NOT a very good supervisor.

I am not sure where it came from but I had been the leading airmen of the line division for about a month, and all of a sudden we get an order that we would need to salute the aircrews as they came onto the flight line, and that petty officers would be allowed to make plane captions do push ups for being "disrespectful". The saluting was not an issue that lasted about a week before the CO put an end t that.

So after i got the order I went to the back office and asked to speak to the LPO in private. I think he could sense I was going to talk about the new order, so he felt like we should do it, in the office in front of our division officer.

I asked a second time and he insisted, so I acquiesced. I told him that none of my plane captains would be doing any push ups on the flight deck for any reason. It was a safety hazard, and that is beside the point that they are in charge of that aircraft, and if respect is so important to the shop people, they can do as they are supposed to and ASK the plane captain to touch the aircraft.

My LPO started to respond, and my division officer said simply, Ison give us the room.

That was the last time I ever heard that stupid shit ever again.

There is a time, a place, and a manner to 'refuse' an order; But you had better be right when you do it.
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SGM Kenneth Stanton
SGM Kenneth Stanton
1 mo
Basically GySgt Pepper is saying the same thing I am saying & I basically agree.
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CPL(P) Tech Ops Fleet Management
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Edited 4 y ago
Praise in public, punish in private. "You stand fast after formation." Give him a chance to explain insubordination. Mandatory counseling. If he is defiant in private after getting the chance then burn him. ART15. Sometimes people are defiant because something happened and they feel out of control so they try to take it wherever they can no matter how inappropriate. Sometimes a wife cheated or a parent died. Sometimes the hospital calls and congratulates you on having cancer. To outright burn a Joe without gathering the facts is irresponsible and we would want someone breathing down our neck to take that extra moment to consider what might be going on too. If it's nothing more than attitude and a shitty personality then by all means light that dead Christmas tree and know you probably saved lives downrange.
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
1 mo
SGT Gary Tob - It doesn't work like that.

The reason i mentioned a coke can is because they used coke cans as IED's in Iraq.

Before you ever get to combat, you make sure everyone knows this is a TEAM fucking effort.

As i said the military is not now, nor has it ever been, an individual evolution.

And that is why you punish the whole squad, one guy fucking up in the squad is the whole squads fault. We are members of a team. The chain of command is only as strong as its weakest link.

I am my brothers keeper.
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1SG Fred "SARGE" Bucci
1SG Fred "SARGE" Bucci
1 mo
Ison, That is pure bullshit! You do not punish an entire squad for ones individual screwup. That's call mass punishment. How the hell do you make it to E-4 with an attitude like that? I have not voted anyone down but I'm close to doing it. You are not my brother and certainly not my keeper.
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SPC Kelly Grindstaff
SPC Kelly Grindstaff
1 mo
SFC (Join to see) - Correct get their Attention Right now, and a side note until they shape up they "Will" be on every shit detail until they get their act together. If needed up the chain of command we will go.
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
25 d
1SG Fred "SARGE" Bucci - I have had good leaders and I have bad leaders. I have been punished as an individual and I have been punished as a group.

Let us say a private loses his weapon, he he the only who looks for said weapon? Nope, team effort, and that is also punishment.

Say a private gets injured. You then hold a safety stand down, and everyone attends, that is also punishment and it is done to the entire group.

Let us say you have a fucked up private and you have done everything you can do, within the limits of the UCMJ, and he still is not squared away. You punish his entire squad, and then they take matters into their own hands.

I have had squad leaders that did push ups with me, even though it was my fuck up, because they knew they had afield to educate me on the proper way of doing things. I have had squad leaders make all the people in the squad do push ups for the same reason, the rest of the squad failed to instruct this private on the proper way to do something.

The difference between you and me? You are POG and I am not. In the infantry everyone looks out for everyone else.

Finally, I am pretty sure the reason some of you are so against group punishment is because you have, in the past, been punished for someone else's mistake and you are still bent over it.
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PO1 David Gibbens
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I can speak from experience on this one. On my first boat( yes I'm a submariner) as an E3 I was made Deck Div LPO, AKA Leading Seaman. While passing out the day's job assignments, I was told "f@#k no" by one of the new seaman. I was shocked to say the least. I went to the 1st LT, a TMCS, and informed him of my situation. He told me in no uncertain terms to take said individual to the back of the work barge and show him the error of his ways. I did so, physically. The young man never questioned me again.
Now, before everyone jumps on me, let me give you my opinion on this matter. This was the late '70s. We were still in the Viet Nam mind set. However; when did the military go from being a gung ho military organization to a job? "Ask him what's wrong". Really?! When you're at 400ft and there's a fire in the Torpedo Room, or you're someplace where people are shooting at you are you really going to take no as an answer?? Or are you going to kick him in his ass, and get him motivated to move in the right direction? I spent 20 years in the Submarine Force and I've seen people come and go. And the ones that went were sent haze gray and underway on surface ships. Which, BTW, was the same as failing. Next time someone tells a senior NCO he doesn't want to do something, point out that the contract he signed doesn't say anything about liking it. He (or she) doesn't have to like it. They just have to do it. STS1(SS) USN, Ret
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Sgt Steven Baldwin
Sgt Steven Baldwin
2 mo
Agreed! Was just about to say exactly what you wrote, "you don't have to like it you just have to f-ING do it!"
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SPC Lee Taylor
SPC Lee Taylor
2 mo
SSG(P) D. Wright Downs - I would make life miserable for him and take his money. He would get strickes against him and make sure he understands that he keeps things up his way out will make it so he cannot be employed by anyone with a gov. contract.
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SSG(P) D. Wright Downs
SSG(P) D. Wright Downs
2 mo
SPC Lee Taylor - Having a Soldier report to my office is not a tea party. It is a learning session, an education. He would learn the consequences of the error of his ways. He would learn that I am not afraid to do paperwork and if I do that paper work what it means for him in the long run.
The First offense is a learning experience…anyone and everyone can screw up. The SECOND time, the Soldier is a slow learner. The THIRD time, he is a FOOL and I suffer Fools poorly. He will be at the corner of Market and Main in his home town as fast as I can get him there. And, having gone into it knowing the results of his errors will determine how he is discharged from service. Not all discharges are BCD. There are others. There are reasons for dismissal that can be used that aren’t going to kill his future employment.
You mentioned his employment by an employer with a government contract. As a civilian working for the Federal government, I have seen some of those companies with Federal contracts and they have enough screwups on payroll w/o adding another inept person who had been in the military and was a screw up there, too. I certainly would have looked at things a bit differently back in the day.
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SPC Lee Taylor
SPC Lee Taylor
2 mo
Never been that way for me in my life. I someone else did something wrong that I got blamed for and I was in the old mans office getting an AR-15. Later that day someone above me found out what happened and who did what I got the AR-15 for. The old man was mad about having to tear up the AR-15. And a dozen others were pissed off at me cause of what happened.
If a person does not know that they do not back talk someone over them giving them at order then ur forever going to be pandering to an idiot that never should have been in the military.
With what I said it gets the message across right now and if they do not understand that they are in trouble they will never GET IT!!
My 1st, 2nd, and 3rd will be hard on him. 2nd time he get the max punishment he can get and not get thrown out. But the message will be put in his file that the next time he is gone. If he wants to get out I am making that a really hard way for him to go. U are making it seem to him that So what this is nothing.
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