Posted on Oct 21, 2016
CPT Aaron Kletzing
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This actually happened to me while I was a battery XO in Hawaii. My brigade had just gotten back from OIF and we were in that weird period of tons of people leaving the unit, and tons of new people coming in. I was in the motor pool like a good XO and one of the guys came up to me and asked to chat in private – he was a SPC (E-4) who was on soft shoe profile and had been for a few months. He was also on some PT profile, which many were skeptical of but that’s not the point. He was also quite overweight and in bad physical shape.

“I don’t want to be in the Army anymore,” he told me. “I’m just planning to keep failing height-weight over and over until I get booted out.” So I talked with him and we went back and forth about what’s really going on with him, etc. But he just stayed firm on: (1) wanting to get out of the Army ASAP; and (2) planning to put no effort into passing height-weight, to get booted.

Obviously I know what actions I took here but I don’t want to spoil it for everyone. How would you have responded in this situation?
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Responses: 259
TSgt Steve Waide
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I have always told my troops that the quickest and easiest way to get out of the military is to do your enlistment and be done. That way you don't have the stigma of having a possible dishonorable discharge. The military is not for everyone but don't be a b!tch and quit when things get tough. Sorry for the word choice but this irritates me to no end.
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PO1 Steven Siepp
PO1 Steven Siepp
7 y
The military isn't for everybody or is not for the individual at the time. I would agree with TSgt Waide on completing your time. at one point I was of the I don't give a s@%t attitude. My evals were starting to reflect that. one thing I learned is you aren't going to be at that one command forever, you are not going to work under the same Officer or Senior NCO forever. But your evals follow you. when you do decide it is what you really want to do, you will play catch up for a long time proving yourself and to others you are worth the effort. you never know what your circumstances will be, just don't burn your bridges.
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LCpl Waliq Knolle
LCpl Waliq Knolle
7 y
SFC Christopher Taggart thats nowhere near the fastest way out.
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PFC Shawn Imlay
PFC Shawn Imlay
7 y
I got out after only one Hitch … regretted it ever since … that and the woman I accidently Bred with ...no I didn't fall on her … it just wasn't kids I was after at the time , are my only two regrets. That said , I agree on some level with all of the above statements except sometimes I do think It would be best for Moral and Unit functionality if Dead weight was dropped most Rikki-Tick
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LCpl Steve Smith
LCpl Steve Smith
7 y
Yup
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CPT Senior Instructor
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I would make sure he gets out of the Army. At the very least I would let him know the ramifications of his actions. But if a soldier is doing this and thinks it is a smart move then the Army really doesn't need him. That doesn't align with the Army values.
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CPT Jeff Robinette
CPT Jeff Robinette
7 y
Very true staff sergeant. You can't save every Soldier no matter what you do all you can do if this guy is worth even trying to help out is to sell him on himself yes you can do it just put up put up for a few months that you have and go from there.
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PO3 Student
PO3 (Join to see)
7 y
SP5 Jeannie Carle - I would bet that wife/girlfriend would rather he stay in, get his stuff straight, and stay healthy.
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SP5 Jeannie Carle
SP5 Jeannie Carle
7 y
PO3 (Join to see) - It doesn't sound like it. I hope you're right.
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SPC Tony Tedder
SPC Tony Tedder
6 y
Give him the boot
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SGM Erik Marquez
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Step one is wanting to help yourself.. If that step can not be taken, on thier own or with education, encouragement, support.
Then far as Im concerned they are a lost cause, not an asset to the unit and I would process them most expediently so a SM that IS an asset may be part of the unit. I would also caution (warn) them, it would be expected they live up to the contract they signed and committed to, that Duty was honorbound until the last day of service, failure of that and it would not be acceptable, UCMJ, and or other then separation under Chap 18 is likley.
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SFC Michael Howell
SFC Michael Howell
>1 y
SSG Scott Thelen - You are a buffer to prevent things that interrupt training or detract from the mission. You're not the buffer that protects them from the consequences of failing to adhere to the standards. Every Soldier is counseled repeatedly on the standards that they are required to maintain. You as an NCO should have been counseled that you were required to enforce the standards.
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SSG Contract Specialist
SSG (Join to see)
6 y
Get them. What a dirt bag. Lol
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SPC Scott Domogalla
SPC Scott Domogalla
6 y
SMG Marquez. Honor bound until last day of service, I believe that is part of the problem. As a whole, our military veterans are only 2-3% of our population. That is a fairly unique group of people. Once basic training and AIT are done, we all became part of that unique group. To me, we are honor bound until our last breath. Upon signing on the dotted line you take the oath, I took it twice, second time to me was unnecessary. I have never heard of a debrief where anyone has been relived of that oath and duty sworn to. If that level of commitment is not being instilled upon our young military personnel, i believe we are failing them. As far as the person failing weight to get out. Someone needs to smoke his ass, motivate that young man until he complies. If that is not being done, what message is being sent to our fighting force? If you want to great, but if you don’t, that is ok too?
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SPC Tony Tedder
SPC Tony Tedder
6 y
Blanket party candidate
Has to go. Weak mind weak body
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“I'm going to fail height-weight on purpose and get booted” – how would you handle this?
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
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1) Investigate. If possible, find out what the root cause is. He says he doesn't want to be there. There's got to be "a reason." That reason may or may not be valid from our perspective, but it's obviously valid from his, and it's big enough that he's willing to talk about it openly. Investigate fully.

2) Remedy if possible. Sometimes a new perspective can fix the underlying cause or at least get him to ride it out til ETS/EAS. He won't be a "Star performer" but but he won't be interfering with others as well.

3) Educate. Remind them that simply failing height/weight isn't a get out of jail instantly card. It's a "process" which can take 3-12 months, and now that you are aware of intent, you will take as long as possible to process it. Additionally, because it is "premeditated" we have inserted LEGAL elements into the equation like "failure to follow a legal order" (PT is performance of duties) and "malingering" (PT is Health). This gets real complex very quickly.

Commanders have some discretion in the chaptering process, but they need contextual information (see 1 & 2) to make that work. A troop destroying their body and future career "just to get out" doesn't make sense. There's more to the story.
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SSG Gregg Mourizen
SSG Gregg Mourizen
9 y
Agreed, You should get to the root of the problem. I personally got hosed a number of times. At one point I was ready to just walk away, and that was after 20 years of service. There were several major issues going on, and my command ignored all of them. This is as much a leadership issue as a soldiers issue. If your soldier is willing to give up everything, there is probably serious issues as to why.
It was mentioned that they had just returned from a deployment (PTSD?)
Soft shoe profile? Are his injuries preventing him from doing PT?
Weight Problem? What has the unit done to help him? Anything? Harassment, about weight is not helping and is usually more demoralizing.
Mass exodus of Troops? Definitely sounds like a command issue. If so many want out, there is probably a more significant cause laying higher than the individual soldier.

To me, likes like a bigger problem than you are seeing.
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2ndLt Fulton Recepcion
2ndLt Fulton Recepcion
9 y
Well said Sgt Kennedy! To add on, leaders can ask these service members, "What are your short and long term plans after leaving the military?"

It's been my experience that people who can't wait to get out whether an early adverse separation like constant failure of height/weight standards or getting out at the end of their enlistment (usually) FAIL TO PLAN WHAT THEIR EXIT STRATEGY IS.

If they are thinking rationally, they will have a plan and give a sensible answer to that question. If not, they will either fumble with it or try to avoid it!
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Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS
9 y
TSgt Frank Shirley - Thank you, I try. But I've been out for 14 years now (this week). No more (military) promotions in my future.
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MAJ Attorney Advisor
MAJ (Join to see)
7 y
Exactly how I would have counseled company leadership on this matter Sgt Kennedy. I may have pushed more for UCMJ if the Soldier was just being a dirtbag- the poor attitude is poison for good order and discipline. If he had a fixable problem and a good attitude, I would advise working with him
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SPC Sheila Lewis
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I know a Veteran who would gladly serve again...me.
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SPC Thomas Moosey
SPC Thomas Moosey
9 y
If I could I would
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SPC Jim Johnson
SPC Jim Johnson
9 y
I would gladly go back again.
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CPL Gary Runnells Jr.
CPL Gary Runnells Jr.
>1 y
Gladly serve again
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SSG David Rollins
SSG David Rollins
7 y
Go back in a minute!
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SGM Steve Wettstein
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Edited 9 y ago
I had this or APFT failure happen a couple of times. They were good Soldiers and I told them that they should keep their options open but I wasn't going to baby them and the choice was theirs and they would have to live with them. They took my advise and didn't fail on purpose.
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SPC Denton McLaughlim
SPC Denton McLaughlim
9 y
SPC Denton McLaughlim - SGM, apologies.... correct rank matters!
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SGT Joe Starr
SGT Joe Starr
9 y
I served for 3 yrs active duty Infantry. I always had a struggle with running. But I NEVER FELL OUT on a field road march and I excelled in the field in all aspects of the Infantry. I seemed to perform alot better in the field where an Infantry man must and I struggled when in garrison. I failed many a PT test but feel that should not be the measure of a good soldier. Like I said I shined in the field where an Infantry soldier must...
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1LT All Source Intelligence
1LT (Join to see)
7 y
I see this problem every semester with ROTC. some people think that a contract is just handed to them. Majority of the cadets that do not contract is for the reason of them not passing the PT test. I also never see them workout on their own time and just expect to pass. I know I failed a record APFT once but for the last three years I have scored in the 280s and 290s.
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1px xxx
Suspended Profile
6 y
1LT (Join to see) Good for you ma'am wish i had that kind of motivation to keep doing that
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LTC Bob Kiser
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35
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I had this situation as an AVIM Commander when two of my Apache Longbow Armament technicians wanted to get out in order to work for a contractor (probably right back in my hangar). I refused to flag them and assigned additional PT every day after work.....profile?....I had them watch PT.......this went on for about 6-8 months and eventually they gave up........every situation is different......you have to consider the individual involved....maybe its better to send him on his way. In my case, these two were my only armament techs who could work on the new Apache radar and owed the Army 5 years........I acted in the best interest of the Army.
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CPT Aaron Kletzing
CPT Aaron Kletzing
9 y
That's an awesome story :)
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LTC Bob Kiser
LTC Bob Kiser
9 y
The "book" doesn't cover every situation....thats why we have leaders....use your best judgement...do the right thing for the Army, while keeping the individual in mind.....those two characters couldn't afford to lose their security clearance as a result of NJP, nor could they slack off at work and ruin their reputation with the Maintenance community.......so I had leverage......if the kid just wants to go home to momma......well.....do the right thing.....
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SPC Jim Johnson
SPC Jim Johnson
9 y
Good stuff, sir
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SPC Member
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Been reading through some of the posts...
I get I'm a young Soldier, and others have been doing this a lot longer than me. I also get that I am in charge of very little to nothing outside of what I'm given.

I will say this though...

Article 92 and possibly Article 115 for Malingering pending investigation. If he wants out like this though, there's a reason even if it isn't a good one. That needs to be looked into, he could be salvageable and retained if some questions could be answered. Perhaps he needs help and doesn't know how to respond to it.

Of course we could make it hurt or kick him to the curb as some of said...

"Competence is my watchword. My two basic responsibilities will always be uppermost in my mind. Accomplishment of my mission and the welfare of my Soldiers.... All Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership; I will provide that leadership...."

I get it, some Soldiers are going to get Separated and some are going to get a Court-Martial some are just not a good fit. That doesn't negate your responsibility as an NCO to look out for those under you. If you're Soldiers are having problems whether it be PT or wanting out then it's your job to look into that.

That's not just an NCO or Officer responsibility, we're all supposed to look out for each other. If someone is having a problem we try and fix it. Punishment and Separation should be our final option. Going straight to it is just being lazy and irresponsible.
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PO1 Cryptologic Technician (Technical)
PO1 (Join to see)
9 y
"Being Salvageable and retained" I wish it was that easy. I even asked the same question but there is nothing, really; the regulation for height/weight is very strict. Even if you were to flub the numbers, someone will find out about it and will point the finger.
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1SG Mike Case
1SG Mike Case
9 y
You are correct, Soldiers are entitled to outstanding leadership and NCO's will provide that leadership. Don't think that because you are new to the Army that you can't have valid input to discussions. As a younger NCO, I did investigate and talked to the Soldier to find out why they had this mindset and I did what I could to change it and of the Soldiers I convinced that this was the wrong way of going about it and they should they will give it another go, I would say that 98% still ended up getting out however they could. Once they had that determination in their mind to get out, you can only stop that thought for so long. So that is why I say to make sure they get out as smoothly and quickly as possible. The majority of Soldiers who have the mindset of wanting to get out of the Army like that, were Soldiers who were not meeting the standards anyway. Those are not the Soldiers I want or need in the Army. That isn't the Soldier who you want guarding your back when the proverbial shit hit the fan. So it is not that I am being lazy or don't give a crap but that experience has taught me that when a Soldier gets to that point, there truly isn't much more you are going to do to make that Soldier do a 180.
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SSG Scott Thelen
SSG Scott Thelen
9 y
Rob, you seem to have wisdom beyond your years. Hang in there, and you will soon have the responsibility that you clearly are ready for!
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SFC Casey O'Mally
SFC Casey O'Mally
7 y
1SG Mike Case Every enlistment I did was definitely my last one. I was definitely getting out of the Army. And I did, through retirement after 20 and change. Just because the grass is greener on the other side, doesn't mean you can't prove how awesome the sand can be.
Sure, there is a time to cut bait, but I think we generally give up on Soldiers too soon.
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MSG Military Police
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Counsel, bar and send home. No need to keep someone in the service if they do not want to stay in, specially if they are firm in their commitment to get out. That ruins morale, brings the unit down in many ways and it's a detractor and bad example for other soldiers to see. Just my opinion.
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CW2 Thomas Herrlich
CW2 Thomas Herrlich
>1 y
Simple.
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CW2 Ernest Krutzsch
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The more time you put into rehabilitating bad soldiers, the more time you take away from supporting good soldiers. I believe that I would not have released him for being overweight, but would have worked with JAG to find out if I could get him out on other than Honorable conditions because He TOLD me he was intentionally going to be overweight
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Cpl Cary Cartter
Cpl Cary Cartter
9 y
... and drag that process out waaaaaay beyond his original EAS ...
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CW3 Company Commander
CW3 (Join to see)
9 y
I would still look into the why and see if he could get some help on the way out but as the old saying goes "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". We can only help those who want to help themselves.
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SSG Healthcare Specialist (Combat Medic)
SSG (Join to see)
8 y
If the conversation was private and no one heard the statements made. then it is a his word against mine situation. To get a OTH discharge you literally have a pattern of misconduct that is well documented or JAG will eat you alive. I have seen it.
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SPC Tony Tarone
SPC Tony Tarone
7 y
In the scenario setting up this thread, the soldier is an E-4. If they are true E-4 mafia they will not be so easily snared.
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