Posted on Mar 6, 2023
If I was awarded an MSM in a combat zone can that be upgraded to a BSM?
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My understanding is that the MSM is a peace time award and that the BSM is the war time medal. Thank you
Awards
Medals
42A: Human Resources Specialist
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 16
You CAN be awarded a BSM in a hostile zone, but that doesn't mean you WILL be awarded one instead of a MSM.
MSMs and BSMs are equivalent (at least in the eyes of the regulation), so there is no "upgrading". However, if your award was given for service under combat conditions (i.e., a fire fight, under imminent danger of hostile action, etc) and not just "in a combat zone" or "during a period of conflict" then you could ask that the award be reconsidered.
The key there is if the write-up is for "combat performance" then you might have a case with HRC .. if you don't, then it's not going to go anywhere (unless you can show that others were given BSMs for the exact same actions ... but even then, it's unlikely because BSMs and MSMs are on the same level as an award).
MSMs and BSMs are equivalent (at least in the eyes of the regulation), so there is no "upgrading". However, if your award was given for service under combat conditions (i.e., a fire fight, under imminent danger of hostile action, etc) and not just "in a combat zone" or "during a period of conflict" then you could ask that the award be reconsidered.
The key there is if the write-up is for "combat performance" then you might have a case with HRC .. if you don't, then it's not going to go anywhere (unless you can show that others were given BSMs for the exact same actions ... but even then, it's unlikely because BSMs and MSMs are on the same level as an award).
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Sgt Bob Corridan
I was discharged from the Corps December 19th 1969...it wasn't until June of 1972 that I was awarded the Bronze with V and I had no idea I was put in for the medal...the only thing I can think of is because of action at the battle of Dai Do, Quang Tri Province 1968 with 2/4 Golf.
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Sgt Ron Harris
Sgt Bob Corridan - You know the government moves slow. I was discharged on 29 Oct 69, after 16½ mo. in country. 52 years later, after receiving 100% SCD due to Agent Orange, I received a package containing a Vietnam SM w/2 stars, a Good Conduct SM, an Expert Marksman SM, and a National Defense SM, all w/ribbons. Go figure.
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It can. But only with a whole lot of high level review and proof that the original award was a MASSIVE oversight/error.
We have recently seen a significant number of valor award upgrades. And by significant I mean in the tens. Covering 80 years and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of awards. So is it possible? Sure. Is it probable? Not likely.
About 15 years ago, the Army did a hard pivot and opened "garrison" awards to deployed actions. If your award is for non-combat activity - and in this case, combat means direct force-on-force stuff - then the MSM is fully valid according to the latest Army guidance.
As a senior medic, the chances are good you were back on a FOB or in a CASH. So, unless you were out on the battlefield, performing TC3 under direct fire, that MSM is most likely going to stand.
Exact same thing for me. I am an Intel weenie. I did theater-level stuff. Plus I ran around 75 missions through Kabul doing secret squirrel stuff with next to no direct support. Me and the two guys in my truck, and another truck with three guys 500m away, and that's it. Took direct fire around a dozen times - but we had armor and just drove through, rather than engaging. Translation: MSM, because no actual combat. Just combat support.
We have recently seen a significant number of valor award upgrades. And by significant I mean in the tens. Covering 80 years and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of awards. So is it possible? Sure. Is it probable? Not likely.
About 15 years ago, the Army did a hard pivot and opened "garrison" awards to deployed actions. If your award is for non-combat activity - and in this case, combat means direct force-on-force stuff - then the MSM is fully valid according to the latest Army guidance.
As a senior medic, the chances are good you were back on a FOB or in a CASH. So, unless you were out on the battlefield, performing TC3 under direct fire, that MSM is most likely going to stand.
Exact same thing for me. I am an Intel weenie. I did theater-level stuff. Plus I ran around 75 missions through Kabul doing secret squirrel stuff with next to no direct support. Me and the two guys in my truck, and another truck with three guys 500m away, and that's it. Took direct fire around a dozen times - but we had armor and just drove through, rather than engaging. Translation: MSM, because no actual combat. Just combat support.
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AR 600-8-22, Paragraph 3-16, the MSM may not be upgraded to or downgraded from a recommended Bronze Star Medal.
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COL Randall C.
What it actually says is not state across the board that "the MSM may not be upgraded to or downgrade from a BSM", it says that the exception to policy that the G-1 granted for a MSM to be awarded in a combat theater for noncombat "does not authorize the MSM to be used as an upgrade or downgrade to or from a recommended BSM."
A MSM and a BSM are at the same "level" as far as awards are concerned. A downgraded BSM is approved as an ARCOM.
It's OBE though because based on the writeup above, a MSM is an appropriate meritorious award. IF there was something to substantiate an oversight, it could have been submitted for reconsideration (a long shot), but there is nothing for that basis.
A MSM and a BSM are at the same "level" as far as awards are concerned. A downgraded BSM is approved as an ARCOM.
It's OBE though because based on the writeup above, a MSM is an appropriate meritorious award. IF there was something to substantiate an oversight, it could have been submitted for reconsideration (a long shot), but there is nothing for that basis.
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Voice text error. A one star or Brigadier General had to approve your meritorious service medal to begin with. You will be going through lots of Hoops to get this upgraded. The Bronx star can be given as a administrative bronze star or bronze star for Valor. You need to tell us what you did and how it was worded so others here can give you some input.
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If you could read us the bullets for your award paperwork to be able to justify your MSM Maybe others here with experience writing the awards would know if you qualify. I want Star General had to approve your MSM so it's going to probably be higher than a one-star general it has to upgrade it.
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MSG (Join to see)
SFC Casey O'Mally - Hey I know you aren't trying to be harsh! Thanks for the input!
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SGM Jeff Mccloud
Also not to be harsh, but it was Jordan, and "No shooting, no BSM," is the unwritten rule of thumb.
I've seen guys get an ARCOMM for a firefight that was a 90 minute flight away from the closest QRF.
I've seen guys get an ARCOMM for a firefight that was a 90 minute flight away from the closest QRF.
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To keep it simple, an upgrade or subsequent award would require your conduct/actions and the environment were hostile and you were part of a force on force or like engagement.
It would appear, based on what you have provided it appears that they treated the deployment as a tour and your end of tour warranted an MSM.
That is a relevant and significant award. Either way, just being in a hostile zone does not warrant the BSM. The burden of proof once everyone has PCSd is on you and available records of action in theater.
It would appear, based on what you have provided it appears that they treated the deployment as a tour and your end of tour warranted an MSM.
That is a relevant and significant award. Either way, just being in a hostile zone does not warrant the BSM. The burden of proof once everyone has PCSd is on you and available records of action in theater.
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Ok SFC. There has been a misconception that has been out there, If your a SFC in a combat zone automatically shoots you up for a Bronze Star. Wrong. One of the things I found to get recognize for it is you have to be in contact with the enemy, multiple occasions. Not just riding around in a combat area either. Not knowing your full experience being in a combat zone, I would say that the MSM is the proven acceptable award. My first tour in Afghanistan, I was part of the newly Combat Adviser mission with the Afghan Border Patrol in the Kunar and Nangahar and the Tora Bora area. Our team was a mix of Armor, Artillery, Infantry, Mortar, Support/Supply, Scout members. We took and sent a lot of contact at Camp Joyce. Our tour award was scrutinized by National Guard, Navy, Marine Officers. We received a Bronze star while other parts of our team didn't. WHY? They never were in contact.
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SFC William Linnell
Another example. After our tour, many of us on that mission, returned back to Riley to be instructors/mentors of new teams coming in and going out to do what we did. it was either to Iraq or Afghanistan. Staying on point, we received a SFC commo specialist to our Co. On and on he bitched about not getting a bronze star for being there. Even though the team he was on training Afghan Soldiers at his camp, received an MSM. After listening to him going on. I told him where I was at at Joyce. His camp was up river to us on the outskirts of Asadabad. I asked him if they ever received fire at his camp from the enemy. He replied NO. Next, i asked if they ever took fire while riding around the country. No again. Any IEDs etc.. No again. I then told him that he did not do anything that would suggest a consideration for the Bronze Star. Just because your a SFC doesn't mean an automatic BS. He finally shut up about it. A MSG in our team got the dream job on Camp Hughie doing camp operations, received an MSM.
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SFC William Linnell
At our camp, we received incoming, machine gun, mortars and rockets, ALOT. After about 2 months of sending our TIC reports to our HQ at Blackhorse, we came across traffic of a Command Group driving around in our AO in hopes of getting into a TIC for award hunting. My team were out on a 4 day mission with our Afghan Border Police. We arrived back to camp with it over run by 7 hummers worth of military, National Guard, AF, Navy, USMC.
True to form, that night, we received incoming. There were so many of them running amok, senior Marine NCO, Gunny, had to be quite forceful to get them out of our way. We received and we also gave. It lasted about an hour. Did our AAR and hit the bunks. That morning my team got up and moving. Those friggin FOBBITs ate all our cooked food at breakfast. We ended up having cereal. Ok...fine. It's food. Some of those other non-combatants were still lingering in our tiny eating facility. What really pissed me and other members on my team off, was a LTC Air Force female was all giddy with excitement talking about last night and how she now is going to get a Combat Action Award. Not sure what type of EOT award they will receive but I feel that it should be a MSM or lower.
True to form, that night, we received incoming. There were so many of them running amok, senior Marine NCO, Gunny, had to be quite forceful to get them out of our way. We received and we also gave. It lasted about an hour. Did our AAR and hit the bunks. That morning my team got up and moving. Those friggin FOBBITs ate all our cooked food at breakfast. We ended up having cereal. Ok...fine. It's food. Some of those other non-combatants were still lingering in our tiny eating facility. What really pissed me and other members on my team off, was a LTC Air Force female was all giddy with excitement talking about last night and how she now is going to get a Combat Action Award. Not sure what type of EOT award they will receive but I feel that it should be a MSM or lower.
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The MSM can be issued in a combat zone. It is usually awarded for significant contributions to those in the ground and in the fight. Example would be a Division Command far from the front, such as an HQ in Kuwait supporting tactical troops in Iraq.
Anyway it is very hard and highly unlikely to be changed to a BSM. It is hard to believe that this type question did not come up when United redeployed, asked and answered is usually what had occurred.
Anyway it is very hard and highly unlikely to be changed to a BSM. It is hard to believe that this type question did not come up when United redeployed, asked and answered is usually what had occurred.
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LtCol Bruce Janis
If your BSM had a V, I could see pursuing this. Maybe I am missing something, but be happy with what you were awarded.
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As already clarified...
The answer is "Yes", any decoration can be upgraded as long as there's additional information provided in the paperwork to justify the upgrade.
Though, if an award was submitted that was downgraded, this specific situation/result can simply be submitted for reconsideration as outlined in the Regulations.
~Brian Kerr
The answer is "Yes", any decoration can be upgraded as long as there's additional information provided in the paperwork to justify the upgrade.
Though, if an award was submitted that was downgraded, this specific situation/result can simply be submitted for reconsideration as outlined in the Regulations.
~Brian Kerr
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